FINAL EDIT: I was looking for theory into melody composition, what I was looking for was tendency tones and related subjects. All theory about choosing the next note in a melody is welcome. Melodic intervals are what I'm looking for not harmonic/ chords. This is to help with writing melodies more consciously/ calculated rather than just improvising with the ear. With writing by ear you are more likely to make something that has already been made, instead of thinking of ALL possible succeeding notes.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2021

Only degrees I, IV and V have functions in major or minor (diatonic) key. The rest of them are substitutions (so, way more ambiguous and flexible). Non-diatonic degrees are also substitutions. Anyway, this theory is not that useful even when we consider the diatonic modes, so be careful how you use it. It was developed pretty much to analyze some of the Baroque and Viennese classical traits (ignoring the OG theories that most of actual composers used like counterpoint, thorough bass+partimenti and... development of stock motives.)

 

Thank you for your answer. Can you please go over what you said about how degrees are substitutions for non-diatonic keys?

Also, since you say that this theory is not useful, which parts of theory would you advise that I look into. I'm trying to improve my melodies. I've looked at counterpoint a little. Ultimately, I'm looking for theory that will allow me to make melodies consciously rather than the "brute force" approach of just using the ear to try random notes. I've studied melodies from some top producers and all the melodic intervals they use seem too deliberate to be done coincidentally.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2021

species counterpoint... under what topic is that lesson? correct, "Sixteenth Century Counterpoint"
dont try random notes, but let your ear decide. those rules are made for monk choirs in dark middle ages' churches. species counterpoint isnt wrong, but somewhat stiff for todays music. feel free to make what sounds nice for YOU. all in all, its your music, isnt it?

btw, take a look for "hack music theory", its more... contemporary, imho. i like them!
theyve got a playlist for melody writing, https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgYcaQlDpHN5-tLZyRc33FJfmsoU5WBjQ

 

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You can find Riemann's and Schoenberg's functional harmony books online, I am not sure you will get anything out of harmonic theory in melodic writing.

Species counterpoint is limited to polyphonic melodies in choral style in a specific harmonic language, so not that useful.
Find the sheet music/midi of some melodies you like and analyze, sing/play them, then imitate them, if you want to become good in melody writing in a specific style.
Honestly, there is no such thing as rules in melodies (well, minor seconds against a chord tone can sound like trash in some cases, but that's it, I reckon). Forget about theories and "hacks", use your ears to decide how it sounds and practice a lot. Good luck.

 

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Dude, grab your guitar or midi keyboard and stop reading forums or you will really get wrong ideas in the end.

 

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there is no "that right note", otherwise every melody starting on eg f would be the same!

 

Ops, that was me, I disagreed with the affirmation that other chords don't have function but I removed it since it was a very minutia disagreement (probs a terminology thing) and perhaps a down thumb could actually mean big criticism or something like that, which wasn't my intention. I agree with what they have said tho.

 

First it's good to distinguish between Tonal and Chordal functional harmony,
they're very closely related, but there's a difference..


Then, in my point of view..
Functional Harmony of Chords changes/varies for every given Tonality/Modality.

For instance,
In Minor/Eolian tonality, the 5th chord should be a Minor chord,
but this is perceived as a Weaker pull/resolution towards the Tonic than what a Major chord would be..

So it's common practice to substitute that minor 5th chord with a more resolute Major b7th chord.
(which also can kinda imply Harmonic Minor termporarily, but that's another topic..)


Or for instance,
In Mixolydian mode, the 5th chord is also a Minor chord, and thus it also resolves weakly to the Tonic..
(or doesn't resolve at all, that's why Modes are not considered Real Tonalities in the Classical/orthodox way of thinkin..)

But guess what, the Second chord which happens to be a Minor chord aswell,
has a stronger pull/resolution effect towards the Tonic.

This doesn't happen as much in regular Ionian or Eolian tonalities,
where the Second chord has a stronger pull towards the Third chord, than it has towards the Tonic.

So the harmonic function of the chords has changed..
Know what I mean?

So the same pretty much applies for every given Tonality/Modality,
where the Functional Harmony of Chords will change in every case, this is just one example.


This has been studied/cataloged and taught forever in the regular Major/Ionian and Minor/Eolian tonalities,
but afaik there's no actual Compendium of the functional harmony possibilities for the rest of the Modes and tonalities that exist.

So in the end one has to study, practice and assimilate the whole concept in this common/basic tonalities,
and then when the idea is assimilated, try to determine/feel how does the functional harmony work in any other given tonality.

It's all harmonic Effects we're talking tho,
and so it's all dependant on how the Brain tends/likes to Interpret things, Naturally, but also Culturally..


And that's my Unorthodox point of view..
also depending on the Musical Style you would be more free/constrained in functional and modulation terms, tho..

For instance Manouche or Gispy Jazz likes to have Full Chords at go go..
But Orchestral music doesn't use chords at all, and simply spreads voices along the various instruments,
so the chords can be Implied with a single Bass note, and if you will a third or a fifth in the violins/violas/cellos or whatever..

But you don't need fully formed or decorated chords to imply a tonality, or create movement/modulation..

So you would be much more free in functional/harmonic and modulation terms..

 

Last edited: Oct 17, 2021

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I know what you mean..
then I guess you need to learn more about the fundamentals of Tonal Harmony and Tendency Tones.

As you know, in general terms the basic tendencies in any key is that 7->8, 6->5, 4->3 and 2->1.
And ofc that 5->1..

But that's the thing,
for one side it's a fundamental aspect of the Physics of music, like 5->1,
and it can be understood integrally in terms of intervallic consonance/dissonance in view of the entire chromatic scale.

But on the other hand it's also pretty much dependent of the Harmonic Context,
so usually we choose a certain set of notes that comprise the tonality,
and all the notes have a intervallic/melodic function in this context, whether they're diatonic or chromatic/alterations..

And it's also dependent on the musical context,
if you were playing a ascending/descending chromatic line, a strong tendency will be to keep ascending/descending.

But it could also get Reversed, or jump to other places,
so there's no absolute rules that are set-in-stone, but it's all very Context dependent.


I do not have a full/more elaborate listing/compendium at hand,
but I remember having studied it 20 years ago in the modern music conservatory I attended for a few years..

There's a bit more to it in fundamental terms than what the Link you provided shows,
but it wasn't really all that big, just a little list with the most natural/usual Tendencies,
usually towards one or two degrees and that's it..

I will try to look for the actual books I used on the conservatory, and see how they listed it.


Meanwhile it wouldn't hurt to look for it yourself, or review the fundamentals:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degree_(music)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(music)

Diatonic Functions that's a good one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Diatonic_functions

Harmonic Function
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function_(music)
https://www.teoria.com/en/tutorials/functions/intro/index.php

In this cheat-sheet it's also mentioned but in a more case-specific level:
https://tsmp.org/theory/lias/pdf/quickfacts.pdf


And also review all the Harmony/Theory Books you can find,
it has to be explained/listed somewhere, but it's something so fundamental we tend to neglect/forget..

Taken to the Highest level I guess you will have something like the Thesaurus:
https://www.lapetitedistribution.org/archive/Nicolas_Slonimsky.pdf

But yeah this is far beyond


ED:
Some random examples may appear/be commented here:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q="tonal+tendency"

@Freetobestolen ??

 

Last edited: Oct 18, 2021

Depending on which source you are looking at and who is defining a cycle and in what context, nothing is ever grouped identically unless it comes from the same source. The foundations of functional harmony remain consistent, but the interpretations and design aspects as in graphs and diagrams like this will vary either slightly or largely, depending on the context and who designed it. For example, the Coltrane diagram while containing the principles of a cycle of fifths extrapolates into further layers as the greater focus while retaining the core... so on and so forth.

There has never been only one way to do anything because if there was, everyone would approach and execute every tune exactly the same way. Rules are critical and they can all be broken, as long as why the rule was implemented is understood. The most famous musicians in history broke all the then known rules - Stravinsky with minor 9th intervals, Mozart writing an Opera in German (no big deal now but it was then due to the harshness of the language) Charlie Parker/Dizzy Gillespie, Coltrane, Hendrix, Jaco... the list is massive. Keith Jarret for example in the Koln concert plays a major 7th over a dominant. Every scale book in the world will tell you it's wrong. Theoretically, it definitely is. Because his melody construct was so strong it worked as it followed his melodic voice leading perfectly. +

How things are voiced etc etc etc can determine how anything sounds. The sound of any chord in voicing has been known to determine an improviser's approach too. They may hear a substitution or a harmonic turnaround that suits where their melodic idea is going....
As an example an E13 in stacked perfect 4ths does not sound like an E13 - E ( then maj10) G#,C#,F#,B,E,A,D... as one of many examples... A voicing like that also changes how any musician might approach it with the diagram you used, possibly not.
Foundations are important but a seasoned musician is not sitting there thinking about what scale they are going to use next when the music is flying past in an improvising context. If they do, the chords are gone more often before they can play anything meaningful. Fresh jazz and classical music school ex students are thinking about scales all of the time. Real seasoned players knew them a very long time ago and can play over anything because they're not thinking about it, they hear it. That is fact.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2021

And yet, is it possible you ARE still arguing with that in some sense?
Please excuse me if this does NOT apply to you.

I'm hoping that what I say here is obvious and redundant but maybe not.

Are you trying to compose in STEP-TIME instead of REAL-TIME?
That will always be a failed disaster unless you're very experienced.

Try this silly thought experiment.... Imagine LISTENING in STEP-TIME...
Play first note, pause, discuss 2nd note, play 2nd note, pause, discuss 3rd note, play 3rd note, pause...

That's obviously insane right? Think about how the listening experience has been totally assasinated.

Now just swap the words and use COMPOSING instead of LISTENING
If you are trying to COMPOSE using STEP-TIME - forget it! it will be dead.

@23322332's advice to 'grab your guitar or midi keyboard' is good advice for many reasons,
one of which is you are far more likely to work REAL-TIME.
If you work only in a DAW make sure you still find a way of composing REAL-TIME.
STEP-TIME might still be appropriate for some aspects of editing but NOT for composing.
Your brain must be musically in motion - or forget it, you will fail.

As I said - hopefully this advice is already obvious and redundant.
Cheers

 

Didn't look at the 'species counterpoint' PDFs, but this entire collection of PDFs is awesome!!!

 

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