I want to learn piano eventually, what's would be a good 61 keys keyboard with similar weighted action to a real piano? I don't have the space nor can I afford a 88 keys in the foreseable future

 

Roland had one with 64 keys back in the day (and it wasn't cheap). Atm - nothing.
You have to go at least 73 keys (Yamaha p121).
If you really want to learn authentic grand piano... there are several decent options on the market and none of them is even remotely cheap (the one in Roland RD2000 or FP90x; Kawai's MP11se; Yamaha's P515, but this one only if you want to transition to play on certain brands of grand pianos - it is quite heavy).

 

Hi Kyunghee, do you have space for 73 keys?

Thomann SP-120 digital piano
- 73 lightly weighted keys with velocity sensitivity
Dimensions (W x D x H): 1070 x 275 x 88 mm
www.thomann.de/de/thomann_sp_120_set.htm

Yamaha P-121 BK (stage piano)
Graded Hammer Standard Keyboard (GHS) with 73 keys
Dimensions: 1114 x 295 x 166 mm
www.thomann.de/de/yamaha_p_121_bk.htm

 

Last edited: Oct 14, 2021

Thanks lads! I picked up the keyboard recently and I'm having a lot of fun, its only a 32 keys keyboard though so it's not ideal.I plan on learning piano but it won't be in the near future so I think I'll settle on a bigger keyboard with semi weighted keys.

Are these just digital pianos or also midi keyboards ?

 

Just that thomann:

Thomann SP-120 Set (73 slightly weighted keys with velocity)
Thanks to the USB connection, the MIDI or audio signals generated on the digital piano can be sent to a PC.

-
Some manufacturers - such as Nektar Technology - build master keyboards with piano-like keys. The Panorama P4 / P6 shown above, for example, would be an interesting example here. Here the keys convey the shape of a piano key, but not the feel of the keyboard. The keys are very smooth, but in the home studio you can play a piano part with them - even if the touch response is more like a synthesizer. https://nektartech.com/panorama-p4-6/ and www.thomann.de/de/nektar_panorama_p6.htm

 

Last edited: Oct 14, 2021

61 keys or even better: 88 keys! Unless you´re planning traveling with it during a tour or like.

 

If you know already at least some theory, you are able to read scores and you need to learn piano technique, it would be highly recommended if not mandatory a weighted keyboard, best at 88 keys.
You can get the cheapest digital pianos at around 300$ (mine is a Casio) or you can go for a semiweighted master keyboard (no sound, midi only) like M-audio keystation 88 or the equivalent Alesis at about 150-200$.

If you learn from scratch you can go for any cheap 61 keys keyboard and begin to study some basics.

 

It goes without saying, but it REALLY depends on what you're doing.. what your needs are.

Me, I use my keyboard controller as a quick way of getting my thoughts into my DAW. I'm no piano player, but I can manage to pull of a solo, or rhythm or bassline.. never more than one of those at a time. lol I'm not doing live performances, and I'm occassionally recording, but with multiple takes to get it right. If you're actually skilled at piano and/or play with both your hands, your needs will definitely be different. If you fall in the same group as me.. 49 is MORE than enough. If you fall in the latter group, where you're a more skilled player, then I'd say at least 61.

I actually had a 49 and downgraded to 25, because I wanted to save some desktop space. I make do with the 25, but I definitely miss the 49.

 

depends on how you want to use it,
I'd personally go for two smaller keyboards instead, maybe 49+49

 

Good to hear from you @SpyFx ✪ ✓, actually you might have a point regarding a potential NI Mk3 new keyboard:

I didn't think about that at all but problem is when it might (or not) be released. It will be hard for me to wait until the next summer but who knows. Also, the million dollar question would be if it would be released at about the same price of the Mk2.

Thanks for suggesting the kurzweil (I'm actually a fan of this brand) but it's not really what I want since it doesn't even have some screen.

I already checked about everything on the market and I'm kind of locked on NKS since I have many VSTis and Kontakt libs and I believe it would be a huge improvement in my workflow.

Thanks to you, I may need to reconsider my priorities for the next six months lol.

Oh and also a huge thanks to everyone who provided his input: I'm now convinced that my next keyboard will have 61 keys, no matter what.

 

What are you waiting for, buy this "Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S61 MK2 (629 EUR)"

The keyboard market is saturated, nothing new is coming. Maybe a few software updates.
Native Instrumenst laid off 50% of its employees. Native Instruments has been sold to an American investor. Now only costs are minimized and profits generated for investors. There will be no new products from Native Instruments.

Please don't fall for such rumors and falsehoods as the SpyFX comment:

 

Last edited: Oct 14, 2021

How would you know?
Unless you have a friend working for them?

 

^^^

^
Edit for the comment below & above |
v
: the very old news about NI simply does not prove anything new about what the NI team (&izotope) holds for the future
As for accusing me that I'm spreading "rumors and falsehoods" here on the forum,i feel sad & sorry for you man, what I can say more
I only replied to mrpanter sharing with him my personal thoughts
So to conclude Beat16,have a great day & from now on please :

 

Last edited: Oct 14, 2021

Spoiler: Large parts of NI are sold to tech investors - January 22, 2021

INDUSTRY NEWS: NATIVE INSTRUMENTS SOLD
Large parts of NI are sold to tech investors - January 22, 2021

https://www.amazona.de/industrie-news-native-instruments-verkauft/
https://www-amazona-de.translate.go...sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=nui

Native Instruments sold to private equity

The Native Instruments Traktor DJ column was sold to Allen & Heath? The rumor from last year could have been confirmed. Such a step would certainly have been good for the DJ division at NI, but unfortunately it has not been confirmed.

The latest information from Native Instruments speaks for the fact that the sale of the DJ division to Allen & Heath will no longer take place.

A large part of the Berlin company Native Instruments has been or is being sold. In addition, the previous owners of the majority of the company, the investor EMH Partners, who acquired shares in NI for around 50 million euros in 2017 and invested again in 2020, and the founders of the company as additional shareholders together with the new investor, Francisco Partners, agreed. According to Business Wire , EMH Partners, the company's founders and other shareholders only keep a small stake in the company.
Francisco Partners, the new “owner” of NI, is a global investment / private equity firm focused on technology.

The future will show to what extent this sale and thus the further investment in the Native Instruments company will make noticeable to the user, and perhaps pay off.
One can already assume a direction, however, and it shows what the past few years have already shown: Traktor DJ will not be the winner of the sale.
Income has increased by 60% since 2017, at the same time the number of users has doubled to around 1.5 million, but this is certainly largely due to the offers for music production from NI, certainly not due to new users of Traktor DJ Pro.

In the statements about the sale of NI by EMH, the founders of NI or the new financier Francisco Partners, not a word is said about the DJ division at Native Instruments.

"Together we can realize our mission to empower and inspire the global community of music creators and help them unlock their creative potential through more seamless experiences. Thanks to the support of EMH Partners over the past years we were able to further reinforce and expand our position as the leading digital music creation company, and we now look forward to working with Francisco Partners, EMH Partners and the founding shareholders to continue on this amazing journey. “- Constantin Koehncke, CEO, Native Instruments

So it seems to be clear that Native Instruments and the financiers see the future of the company in the field of music production and software as well as hardware for them - no longer in the DJ area - the area that at NI was a very large, partly took the most relevant part.

According to Business Wire, the selling price also reflects the company's positive development in the years since EMH invested and, we have to be clear about this, “positive development” here means economic indicators - not technological progress.

How this will affect the products and offers of Native Instruments, between the DJ sector and tools for music production, that will again be shown in the future. We hope that developments in both segments will continue, because, in both segments, Native Instruments stands for developments that have changed DJing and music production over the long term. Until today and hopefully even further!

Spoiler: Native Instruments laid off 100 Employers in Berlin

Native Instruments laid off 100 Employers in Berlin
https://www-amazona-de.translate.go...sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=nui
/www.amazona.de/community/native-instruments-entlaesst-100-mitarbeiter-in-berlin/

Spoiler: Last week, Native Instruments laid off around 100 employees in one day, 20% of the total workforce.

Last week, Native Instruments laid off around 100 employees in one day, 20% of the total workforce.
This is part of the new 'One Native' strategy, as the Berlin company has now confirmed.
https://www-dj--lab-de.translate.go...sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=nui
www.dj-lab.de/native-instruments-feuert-20-der-mitarbeiter-und-wechselt-strategie/

Spoiler: Is Native Instruments in trouble?

Is Native Instruments in trouble?
https://www-gearnews-de.translate.g...sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=nui
www.gearnews.de/steckt-native-instruments-in-schwierigkeiten/

For a few weeks now there have been isolated reports from former employees of Native Instruments that do not paint a rosy picture of the current working atmosphere within the company. There is talk of dismissing long-term employees, planned projects are allegedly canceled and communication between developers and top management is said to have stalled.

Layoffs at Native Instruments
About layoffs has been written on websites such as Reddit for a few weeks now, CDM is now talking about 20 percent of the workforce - largely at the Berlin headquarters. Meanwhile , reviews from disappointed ex-employees are piling up on the English job website Glassdoor.co.uk . The company's rating has now dropped to 2.1 stars. One of those affected writes here:

Today you (the management) fired over 100 of your employees. Some working for this company since more than 15 years, many with family and kids. If you would have the tiniest bit of dignity you would step down and honestly apologize.

Elsewhere, the difficult relationship between employees and management is discussed. Projects are simply canceled, employees are laid off and the pay is low. There are also complaints about too much bureaucracy. Especially the last three months are in the foreground with the complaints. There is also the allegation that the management does not have a proper understanding of the products. "Too many superfluous meetings" - there is also this statement to be read.
Realignment of the company

CDM reports that CEO Daniel Havers has taken a position. According to him, the company is getting a new direction - the vision is "One Native". What exactly is meant by this remains unclear at the moment. Apparently it's about a new platform that will be unveiled next year.
This was the most difficult decision we had to make in our entire history, as our past successes have been enabled by the work of some of the best and most passionate people in the music industry. We thank all employees for their commitment, hard work, and their high degree of loyalty to Native Instruments. We are fully committed to doing all we can to take care of our employees impacted during this difficult time, (Daniel Haver).

Two years ago Native Instruments entered into a partnership with the investor EHM Partners . It is conceivable that the company's new direction is related to this. Such collaborations often result in restructuring.
The official statement

Berlin, August 29, 2019 - Native Instruments, the world's leading provider of software and hardware for computer-based music production, announced today a plan to centralize their global business operations, which includes a headcount reduction of 20% across all locations. The key reason for this difficult decision is to create the right organizational setup to focus on the development of a new, unified and fully integrated platform on which the company's entire portfolio of products and services will be available next year. This change comes despite growing revenues in 2018 and the first half of 2019, but as a response to an increasing cost structure due to the company's previous divisional setup and multi-brand approach.

“Today is a very emotional day for the native community. We've been driving innovation in music creation since the 1990s. First through software instruments, then by expanding to an integrated ecosystem with complementing hardware and now by creating a unified platform experience for the modern music producer, ”says Daniel Haver, CEO and co-founder of the company. “To make this transformation successful, we needed to adapt our strategy, including a centralized functional setup that can support our vision of 'One Native'. Unfortunately, this also means we had to make some tough decisions and part ways with a number of employees. This has been the hardest part of this transformation. ” You can find more statements here .
Behringer takes up the topic

The posting on Behringer's Facebook page from September 2nd is a bit bizarre in this context . The company is taking the current reports as an opportunity to draw attention to job offers and is willing to hire 50 developers in the field of digital hardware , DSP and embedded software in Germany, Great Britain and Denmark. Is that certainly an option for the laid-off workforce and a good move, or is it just a Behringer marketing gimmick?

 

Last edited: Oct 14, 2021

Sorry SpyFX, don't take btite personally. Correction of errors:
You strongly recommend waiting for the NI Komplete Kontrol S Mk2,
it is already there:
Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S61 MK2
https://www.thomann.de/de/native_instruments_komplete_kontrol_s61_mk2.htm

You are sure to have made a mistake ... and you should use the NI Komplete Kontrol S Mk3

... and you also know that it will come next year in January 2022 or in summer 2022.
Is there any evidence or article from Native Instruments for this?
Oh, they mean yes ...! So a fortune teller or a charlatan.

You explain to us that you have found an algorithm because 4 years ago ...
and you draw conclusions that the MK3 will appear next year ...

The user mrpsanter already adjusted to it, due to your false claims, and hoped that it would not be so expensive.

Sorry but the fairy tale cannot be told ...

 

You don't need 88 unless you're playing seriously, and even then, not that much goes full width. If it does you can play it down. For every day MIDI/DAW use, recording melody lines etc, even 66 is overkill imo, I'd go 49, definitely.

 

Mellotron had 35 keys..sometimes limitations are good for creativity. I have a Mellotron Micro w/ only 25 and I love it. Just make friends with the 'octave' switch

 

If you actually want to learn piano and not just use the keyboard for punching in midi notes and adjusting them afterwards then you will most definitely want a digital piano or a controller that offers fully-weighted keys.
I can't stress enough how important this is. Do not attempt to learn classical piano on a half-weighted, plastic-feeling keyboard, you're going to go insane. The attack and weight of the keys really, really matters. It's difficult to convey that to someone who is new to piano.
In my experience, even with piano style velocity curve and all that it still just doesn't feel right on a keyboard that isn't fully-weighted.
Judging from the Keyscape demo Spectrasonics did you can make it work though... if you get a really high end controller for a grand or something.

As for me, back when I started taking piano lessons I went with a Kawai ES-100 digital piano which cost around 600€ at the time and I haven't regretted it.

Edit: I guess I should've read past the "I want to learn piano eventually" part
But to be honest I really doubt that you'll be able to find any good options in 61 key format, since fully-weighted piano action and 88 keys usually come in a bundle that is supposed to emulate the keys of a real piano. Even just the fact that the higher keys tend to be easier to press down than the lower keys is usually something that is simulated across the whole 88 key range.

 

Last edited: Oct 15, 2021

Have you considered getting a Maschine MK3 controller in addition to a non-NKS compatible keyboard?

 

i use korg vintage stage sv-1 as midi controler or small keystation. but nice keys is really more fun. somehow. somehow it doesn't matter. the product is the same. and i lose myself with 50$ controler anyway and space around and having fun exactly the same...