You have no idea how much more work...

I hope you don't believe that adding extensions simply mean "adding colours" to a basic triad.

Why? Because the chord function changes by every inversion.

I don't mean to scare anyone away but, that's Pandora's unboxing for the great majority.

I certainly could do that, but I'd be forced to lie and manipulate one's expectations, commonly done by resorting to an over simplified example.

Anyhow, I'm gonna work on something. Give me some time.

Btw, just clarifying my understanding beforehand (totally fine if you do not agree upon):

IV, vii, iii, vi, ii, V, I = Major cycle, not Ionian

ii, V, I, IV, vii, iii, vi = minor cycle, not Aeolian


Cheers

 

This is amazing. I will definitely read this whole thread when I am free. Thank you so much!

 

Yeah yeah you're a muso-workaholic so get on with it

OK Re: clarifying terminology...

a) Firstly, I won't obsess over the terminology; the words are there only to identify and communicate the ideas.

b) Apologies for me using the phrase "fully diatonic circle of fifths" That's probably ambiguous.
Better for me to emphasise that in this case "fully diatonic" is intended but "circle of fifths" tends to imply chromatic so would be better replaced by "cycle".
So, to be clearer let's use the phrase "diatonic cycle of fifths" which is more traditional in jazz books.
And to be totally unambiguous about the idea please refer to the explicit examples posted below.

c) I acknowledge your preference for the term 'Major cycle' instead of 'Ionian'
and your preference for 'minor cycle' instead of 'Aeolian'.
The reason I will hang on to my use of Ionian and Aeolian is described next.

In the post below we see classic examples of this diatonic cycling. We have a Major cycle and a minor cycle.
This is 'tradition and convention' it is Western classical and Jazz; it is a merely a cultural artefact.
And of course it is an amazingly brilliant tradition but we don't need to stay locked into it forever. The 'rules' of functional harmony are compelling to our ears but they're not cast in stone prescriptions for current or future music.
So...
We have (from tradition) a diatonic Major cycle based on the Ionian mode.
and we have (from tradition) a diatonic minor cycle based on harmonically adjusting the Aeolian/natural-minor
(i.e., we use the Harmonic minor scale so that our minor v chord becomes a dominant V chord instead;
and we do this to rescue the functional dominant that we crave from tradition)
That's all fine, but let's ask can we do this with other modes too?
We have a Major cycle that lands on the I
We have a minor cycle that lands on the vi
Where are the versions that land on ii, or iii, or IV, or V?

If I take the traditional Major/minor cycles and allow myself to call these the Ionian cycle and the Aeolian cycle
(and I accept that some little chromatic adjustments were useful - like using the harmonic minor scale instead of Aeolian)
THEN what can we find when we try to explore the Phrygian cycle, the Lydian cycle, etc.
What can we find when being strictly diatonic?
and what little chromatic adjustments might be useful (analogous to using harmonic minor)?
It is possible (and probable) that any resulting theory or analysis from these explorations will look pathetic compared to the traditional theory focussed on the Major / minor cycles but that doesn't matter.
Or I should say it doesn't matter to me because all I ever want from this kind of exercise is to enjoy the exploration and see what musical ideas might drop out of it.
While exploring like this I will not be wedded to obeying previous 'functional' rules and I won't be trying to define new rules either. I will just take delight from hearing what emerges and seeing if I can make it into something that entertains me musically.
If that means that a cadence was begging to happen but we refused to let it happen - then so be it.

Examples diatonic cycle of fifths. Source p144. Exploring Jazz Piano Volume-1 Tim Richards

 

Last edited: Aug 31, 2021

Alright, holy grail just has been found. No need to continue with the thread...

https://deals.unison.audio/advanced-scales-midi-blueprint-launch

 

Better to go on...

 

Damn, I missed a pseudo-snob-elitist. Good luck with yourself Providence, gonna need shitloads of it

 

I do like both comments - the sarcasm, and the debunking - I share your attitude.
Anyone who wants midi packs to write songs for them is deluded but sadly that's how these packs are marketed.

However, I do think we can find something educationally useful in there.
Courtesy of sister site I took a peek at that midi pack. I do like midi collections. Many are poor, some are excellent.
Usually they're nowhere near as interesting as studying midi versions of actual repertoire.
But, as always, they're only useful if we switch our brains on.
This midi pack is pretty good IF someone is self-teaching and wants to exploit the pack as an educational resource.

I've tried to provide a mini review and discussion of why I think this midi pack could be useful and relevant to this thread.

An overview of the contents - will be discussed below

Note how although every resource is presented in 12 keys; they are just transposed resources, so as midi, any one key presents everything that the resource offers.

Contents examples - Chord progressions from 08 Harmonic Minor scale and 14 Bebop Major scale


Discussion

Some suggestions early in this thread were "Study Diatonic thoroughly"
so that all explorations of chromatically extending diatonic would have a strong foundation.
The first six of those midi collections are great for exploring strict (pure) diatonic - they are 6 of the 7 modes available for pure diatonic. Exploring, for each mode, the scales, a set of chord inversions, and a set of chord progressions, is educationally useful.
The chord progressions seem to be well labelled (but only a quick peek so I can't guarantee they're all correct).

Then, also discussed early in this thread, ... where next after diatonic? How to chromatically extend diatonic?
The rest of the midi packs are nice optional routes to explore chromatically extending diatonic.

Consider Pack 08 - Harmonic Minor
That would be the tiniest and really useful step to take next. It is only one note changed from pure diatonic and it clearly fits in well with classical tradition. But just changing that one note gives you a fresh set of chords - chords built on each note of the harmonic minor scale.
So if someone asks questions like these...
- "What are the chords built on the notes of the harmonic minor scale?"
- "Can I hear some chord progressions using only those chords?"
This midi pack does provide (contrived) examples and can help explore those questions.

Then consider extending the same game, i.e., find another scale that is just a little different from diatonic
and see what chords it generates, and see some chord progressions that strictly conform to that set of chords.

Consider Pack 07 Melodic Minor. Now we have 2 notes different to pure diatonic and we have an explosion of possibilities so loved by Jazz. All the modes of the melodic minor scale are bread and butter to jazz. So what are the chords that get built on the melodic minor scale and can we hear some progressions using just those chords. This midi pack does provide examples.

For all of the above, I applaud the educational potential. If people want to just dip into these resources and hope to find their next ready-made hit song chord progression then dream on, but if they switch their brain on and self-teach using these resources then the resources are pretty good.

Moving on, the pack includes a nice set of scales to carry on exploring as described above.
Including, for example, 2 examples of 8 note bebop scales that were nicely discussed earlier in this thread
- see various comments earlier about Barry Harris bebop

So, overall, I give this midi pack a thumbs up
as a nice extra resource to plunder while someone is self-teaching about the main ideas that this thread discusses.

 

Last edited: Sep 5, 2021

Fine, I'm now officially depressed...

We need a serious talk. PM me.

 

Nope - all in the thread; only way I play.

 

You force me to write way more than I want to and can do.

I tend to respect and value your punctuations, despite the initial raids when we first crossed paths and the constant teasing thereafter (although somewhat cordial).

That's because you care about people getting things right about music theory and you try willingly help whenever you can and within your reach.

Nonetheless only bits and pieces of your own struggles with it are surfaced once in a while, which in my opinion should be openly and fearlessly asked.

Consider that only blatant liars claim to know music theory intimately, once one dives deep into it, no realization comes to mind other than to be dealing with a chimera - but we don't know better given the system created and utilized to cast some rationale over it.

This midi content is nothing short of harmful for those in such pursuit, suffice to say I vehemently have been accused of far worse for far less in here.

All in all I must admit, I've started this thread from "the end" - maybe expecting to find and gather peers who enjoy discussing the theme in some sort of open collab, although the bar was set too high from the get go, and those few some say who could contribute at such level, momentarely brought in only their pedantry.

If there is a skein to be found in this thread, I wish I could go back and take it from there, properly.

If there is no such thing, not even remotely, I shall then scrap it.

I'm probably forgetting some others but I thank you, Ŧยχøя and Obineg for your interest and collaboration.

 

Without getting emotional..
Before getting anywhere close to this MIDI pack, I'd rather learn to use Band in a Box..

I mean talk about a contrivedly obfuscated system, and Outdated GUI.
The year will be 2121 and they will still be high on that Windows 3.11 trip.. lol


Not doubting its capabilities ofc,
It could be useful for the learning/practicing musician, specially dealing with Jazz Standards where it excels..

But I could never get my head around its usage and philosophy/bureaucracy,
it's like a sweet spot between being tortured in a Hamster Wheel, and playing Roulette on the Casino..

 

Last edited: Sep 5, 2021

As for the Midi pack you've got two options..

Learn the Scales/Modes yourself,
learn how to think about it, and create your own diatonic Chords and Progressions..

Then just see where it takes you, if only by merely/systematically trying all the possibilities,
and doing your own recollection/selection of ideas..

Or

Browsing through an Endless Soup of possible Generic progressions,
made with the Ass by someone even more Lazy than you..
but probably just to end as empty handed and Confused as you began.

And then realize shit's going Nowhere, and you're better trying the options yourself,
even if only making the simplest Bass line move around..

Which luckily brings you to the first Option,
where at least you get to learn the stuff, use your brains and put it in practice,
and probably learn/gather something more true/real about music.. as it's always been


So yeah, in the end Midi pack is Positive, because you get the Idea of how things could work,
which prompts you to take matters on your own.. and just learn it, and do it for good.

Paying for it is where the game becomes non zero-sum tho..

 

Well wow - I didn't expect to see hostilities or upsets from me finding some positive features in something as mundane as a midi pack.
That was quite surprising. And it's not something that I'd ever bother to argue about.
So, the comments below are just a wild guess at explaining why our opinions were so different - why I found something positive and @Freetobestolen felt despair at that.

Context matters.
Just a few extracts from my first comment at the beginning of this thread. That comment describes my perspective.

I put a lot of emphasis on that big distinction between...
[1] Developing theory maps of the musical terrain
[2] Exploring the terrain in musically interesting ways
I think the midi pack is a useful resource for [1] - and (the opposite) it's an uninteresting resource for [2]
I found positive things to say about how it contributes to [1]. Others seem to have focussed on how useless it is for [2].

More woffle elaborating an that point...
That midi pack, focussed on scales and the basic chords built on those scales, is just a resource. It can be used in good teaching or used in bad teaching or used in no teaching at all. The people selling the pack are trying to hype newbies into believing that this can replace musical compositional thinking altogether - i.e., pure marketing bollox.

But it's up to us (as always) to find whatever utility we can in whatever resources we encounter - as long as they're coherent.
I found positives in this midi pack only when thinking of it in my first category,
i.e., [1] Developing theory maps of the musical terrain
Anyone that hasn't seen these scales before and the chords built on those scales can be exploring them and treating the midi pack as a useful resource. I agree with @Ŧยχøя's attitude here too - it's better if people are learning how to figure out for themselves what chords would get built on a scale - but any resource (like this) which provides examples will really help beginners.
It will NOT teach anyone how to play or how to compose.
Or as I described, it will NOT help with [2] Exploring the terrain in musically interesting ways

That is (maybe) why we had different positive or negative reactions.
I saw it only as useful in the map building part of the game.
Others saw it negatively because it doesn't contribute to teaching anyone how to play or how to compose.

This difference in perspectives does make me smile though... It's like I gave a mini review of a boat and concluded that it was quite a reasonable boat and then saw people complain that it was a crap plane that couldn't fly. - well dah !
There's not much point in looking at a piano and thinking "that's a crap guitar"

@Freetobestolen - you described this midi pack as "nothing short of harmful". I don't really know what you mean by that
but I'm guessing that you seem to be in despair at how bad this midi pack is as a music theory teaching device.
My reply is that "It is NOT a music theory teaching device at all!"
There are no lessons in there, no pedagogy, no teaching. It is simply a resource waiting to get used by someone self-teaching or even someone designing some teaching experience. Think of it as being like some equipment in a university lab; it is educationally neutral and means nothing at all until someone designs a teaching-learning experience that exploits it.
IF it was claiming to be a music theory course then we would all laugh at how pathetic that claim was.
IF it was claiming to a substitute for composition (as the manufacturers do claim) then we ought to warn beginners to not get conned.

But as a simple resource to support someone exploring building basic maps of the music terrain - it's quite useful.

If after this second attempt, I haven't managed to convince you that my positive review was no big drama then fine;
I'm not exactly desperate to convince anyone else - I liked it - I can find it useful - I think beginners could find it useful too but only if they have figured out some self-teaching path already and know why they are exploring the resource.

Cheers

 

Unison Midi Pack, more than meets the eye..

So yeah, it seems this particular Midi pack has been the laughin stock for a while,
and judging by the actual Spot I can see why.. it's all so Amateurish!

And you got all this noob Beatmeikas basically accepting they're complete ignorants when it comes to Music Theory/Harmony,
advising you to follow their exact same path..!

Because yeah, Theory/Harmony are part of a secret conspiracy to hold you down,
so you can never break out on the biz, kinda like a hetero-patriarchal glass ceiling I guess.. lol


As laughable as it all is, tho,
ofc I can see some value in it, and I can agree with Adheesive to a degree..

This could help absolute Noobs who are just beginning and learning the subject,
have no better resources/don't know better, and need things shown to them in FL piano roll or something..

And it could also help lazy/random FL Beatmeikas who just want to fiddle around with their gear/plugs and whatnot..

But yeah, the way it's advertised.. instant Meme lol

 

Last edited: Sep 5, 2021

Everything else lands on its correct place to my understanding, except for the above statement.

Sorry but I cannot agree with that, not by the slightest ammount - mostly due to the fact that the midi content is dreadfully wrong in a broad sense.

Just compare (soundwise) the Dorian examples I posted here against theirs - they are conceptually wrong.

Or, e.g. Locrian is not present - an essential mode to be understood. If done proper, it grants the use of all the others confident and unmistakably.

 

Neither hostilities nor upsets, please don't steer in that direction. Just my concerns on how you initially harnessed your reasons.

Also not arguing (you can tell the difference when I am), as we could have avoided misunderstandings with a brief chat.

To me that keeps being a valid perspective, as I've already said more than once along the thread.

However appreciated, re-elaboration or second attempt not needed @Ad Heesive, to me you could have just stated the following priorly, as an introductory analysis:

Regarding to the following point, as so as the others not commented, I merely suggest you firstly to consider that you're only able to see the glass half-full due to your prior knowledge. That's not the case for the great majority, potentially dragged into such midi-fictious-content.

Are we still cool? No hard feelings.

Cheers

 

@Freetobestolen
Is there only one correct way to work with notes, or can anyone work with notes as they wish? If there's only one, so what's that correct way? And why?

 

Absolutely. The same crap being fed to the uncautious from time to time. I'm glad in knowing that the consumers rejected it badly, unfortunately after falling into the trap.

So, the first video wraps it all up beautifully, the script/train of thoughts is awesome - not to mention it's very funny and well produced.

Thanks for that @Ŧยχøя

Cheers

 

Icha tIn giue he racfterys ntils rosr caou htgie stlemh etesdesa?

 

All totally fine.
I have seen this kind of topic become wildly and pointlessly argumentative in some other threads, whereas here we're all just pointing out the pros and cons and enjoying seeing the different emphases.

I thoroughly enjoyed both of those videos posted by @Ŧยχøя - perfectly placed within this discussion.
I'm more than happy to see their superb cynical commentaries counter-balance (but not contradict) the positive things I said.

I loved the way the videos rant! So here's my contribution to ranting.
Here are just the negative things I said about that midi pack...

It would appear that my crime was not being harsh enough in my criticisms.

So @Ŧยχøя posted two videos that took the gloves off and hammered the company.
The first video is a wonderful piss take that criticises the company AND, just as importantly, it criticises the lazy moronic attitude of its willing customers who just want quick fixes to celebrity status 'via music' but without actually engaging with music ideas at all. It's easy to see how that is exactly what is pissing off @Freetobestolen too.

The second video is even better because it includes a quick tour of some decent midi tools, and the guy presenting is even more fun to listen to - his rant against the Unison company is priceless.

A few extra observations...
The first video provides a link to a free midi pack (so thanks for that) https://github.com/ldrolez/free-midi-chords
The FREE midi pack definitely equals better $value - but it covers only basic Major - minor (scales and their chords)
So I think the claim that this is a better midi pack than Unison is false.
The Unison midi packs being criticised in the video are old ones. The Unison midi pack I reviewed above is recent and is actually more interesting (see in my review above the list of interesting scales that it includes) But "would I 'pay' for it?" - no way!

Overall - I think all this extra slagging off, from all your comments and the via the videos, is entirely legitimate, and hopefully any newbies reading this thread will get something out of the colourful (and nicely non-heated) pros and cons discussion that we've been having.
Especially they should note that everyone here (including both the videos) agrees that the idea of looking for shortcuts in music instead of enjoying the work is quite simply an 'arse about face' misguided attitude.

Overall, with regards to this midi pack (and any others) and all the nice midi tools mentioned in the 2nd video, I'll still stand by my simple philosophy of...
"switch brain on, engage creative mode, and decide for yourself what can be usefully exploited. As long as you are being genuinely musically creative, you can explore any and all resources and decide for yourself whether they are useful or junk - nothing is off limits"

There's a lot of junk out there and a lot of good stuff too, so as the first video beautifully emphasises, the idea of staying dumb, and not knowing which is which, is just - DUMB!