If I was the owner of this forum would definitely delete any thread that is directly or indirectly related to jazz. Its origin is wrong, theories are wrong, their questions are wrong, their improvisations are wrong, their plays are wrong, ...

It's not about the ego, its all about their music...

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2021

Indeed a great and comprehensive summary of Mr. Harris' take on Bebop-Jazz theory, no question.

It's a very seductive approach, as well as it offers a good structure but, other than that, what is it about? Anything beyond (I wonder)?

Through this (lovely) seven parts video series we may give a go at the man's himself explanation, although not in a so detailed fashion, all his premises are presented nonetheless:

After watching them in full, please share your analysis and frank opinion.

Thanks for bringing that up.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2021

I can surely agree with that, concerning to the format in which is presented, so its didacticism.

One of the important aspects I see, found emphasized on Mr. Harris materials', is the importance of creating "movements" from scales, in other words, harmonization, which I'd like and expect to be considered here more often.

On the other hand, it has never been my intention to come full circle, thus posing myself as a teacher with a kind of superior method, but to promote a discussion over the "diatoniscism limits" then, steady and gradually, ultimately start deriving (through questions and answers) useful examples from the highlighted six scales, alongside the thread attendants.

However, I've introduced what I firmly believe to be the diatonic system boundaries, but the possible combinations are humanly ungraspable.

May I suggest you to give some thought about how quirky and arbitrary these following examples are?




Instead of being in 4 keys at the same time (B. Harris), how many keys would you say this example to encompass?




I'd really appreciate you to share your thoughts upon such (definitely no challenge or sarcasm intended). Thanks in advance.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2021

It's just a different approach/point of view on Jazz harmony..

It takes Octatonic or Bop scales as the foundation, and integrates them fully,
using the otherwise considered extra notes, as regular harmonically functional notes..

So for instance,
with his fully harmonized first scale Ionian + b6, you get a set of interesting extra chords,
while some other chords will/can also be altered, thus adhering to the overall sonority..

And well altogether it serves as a Fully Contained system to sound Jazzy,
but in this Retro old-fashioned soapy way..

Probably something more similar to the beginnings of Jazz,
rather than the Cool or Modern/fusion styles that came later.

It also reminds me of Christmas jazzy music,
having so much and prominent 6th's and b6ths in its chords and foundation..

Ofc each of his scales is prone to give a different sonority,
and some of them could be also used to give a more modern sound/impression..


He calls his scales "Diminished", but are more like Octatonic/Bop scales:
M6º scale = Ionian +b6
m6º scale = Melodic Minor +b6
7º scale = Mixolydian b6 + nat7
7b5º scale = Ionian b5 b6 + b7 (or Major Locrian + nat7 whatever..)

And later on also deals with regular Diminished and Wholetone scales..

Fully Harmonizing this scales opens a myriad of possibilities,
and he recollects all the possible inversions and substitutions that occur..

And also gets into a more practical approach,
giving examples on how to convert standard/basic real book examples to better suit his method/approach..


I haven't had the time to fully wrap my head around it,
and it's certainly a very Interesting and complex point of view..

But at least it serves as an example of a possible direction that could be taken with harmony,
beyond the classic heptatonic scales/harmony..


Here's a more Simple and Practical demo/explanation of the basic idea:

 

Last edited: Jul 8, 2021

Anything they have devised or added to music has to be removed. All their efforts have happened in sheer unawareness.

Someone can claim that they can add something that they have understood the concepts of music. Everything they have added or changed has occurred in unfamiliarity with and ignorance of how music works.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jul 8, 2021

I personally am not into pure jazz but it's extraordinary to read your dictatorial assertion in such black & white terms. I know that you're just a troll but it's not like anyone's forcing you to listen to it in 2021.

Ok then, so what music would you suggest to replace jazz to those misguided, lost souls who are into it?

 

Any music that is based on accurate theory, second by second, not chance. All the modern music is chance music. Its sign is looking for modern sounds. There is no proper theory in modern music and modern sounds and modern compositions. When there's no powerful theory, there's no powerful music too.

 

I opted out of this discussion due to a lack of understanding of the topic. Have you considered doing something similar?

 

Man you're so late. I'm getting banned but I'd better remove my own account. It's more honorable. Within a day, I got 4 warnings, and I don't think the dearest mod will let me be with you anymore. I'll leave you to the Great God. Take care of yourself.

 

You just don't feed the troll, it's the only way, until it get bored or a mod get on his pants

 

For some perspective, here are some students aged between 17-25 doing most things listed in this thread and much more.

 

Nice, what is this kind of jazz genre is this? I know must be fusion but there are so much under fusion... you notice the lack of experience in the solos, is like 1/3 of them are just out or just plain random shit

 

It's interesting if you look at the musical term 'fusion' staying in context with the thread.... We're all taught the supposed origins of a lot of things in this life only to find decades later someone missed something (e.g. Marconi invented radio only to find out Tesla did)... To the point - They step outside sometimes with authority and other times are searching. I actually think the bassist has a better grasp on telling a story and that's not because I am a bass player. That's just commenting musically. I can hear his Jaco influences all through it too. I am not keen on his pentatonic choices in the bass solo but that's only my personal preference.

Fusion in its simplest form is the combination of two or more things. To be rehearsed at this level and North Texas State is adamant with rehearsals as part of their structure, so they would have practised it. Their tutors would have given them some instruction. If you listen to the melody as complex as it is, they're all bouncing off that in their phrasing and approach. It has a Brecker Brothers kind of feel.
I have put 'Not Ethiopia" by The Brecker Brothers. I can hear the saxophonist is approaching it similarly. It's not so much that what they're playing is floundering or lacking in skill, as in the missing discipline from doing a lot of playing shows. In the below similar style you can hear the difference how both Breckers builds their solos versus these kids who launch straight into barrages of fast lines.
What they're doing is great for their age. Some of the lines are exceptional and unfortunately, some get lost because of a lack of fragmentation or structure. But they will be great players if they continue. Most of what they need is there.

Fusion side-note - there is speculation whether fusion actually started with Dizzy Gillespie and Chano Pozo in the 40s and 50s or even possibly as early as 1927 with Dead Man Blues with Jelly Roll Morton merging Spanish influences and classical music into a blues. Nobody is prepared to commit to any speculation though lol


- the bassist on Not Ethiopia is actually Marcus Miller BTW.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jul 8, 2021

Just to add some support to the above 'get some perspective' comments - but from a different angle,
and why I still advocate and rant about 'being led by repertoire' instead of 'being led by theory'

Sergei Prokofiev: Sarcasms - Five Pieces for Piano, Op. 17

www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-Swxz9QctU

So it's even called "Sarcasms"
Maybe an alternative title could be 'Prokofiev takes the piss chromatically with style and elegance'
- Time required to listen - 10 minutes
- Time required to analyse - 10 months (or much longer for me)

Here's a link to someone's thesis on analysing elements of the style of Prokofiev
The thesis is mostly impenetrable to me but the abstract is readable and reveals the scope of the task.

Spoiler: Analysing Prokofiev

https://urresearch.rochester.edu/institutionalPublicationPublicView.action?institutionalItemId=2022

Abstract
It is the aim of this paper to analyze elements of the style of Sergei Prokofiev, particularly the elements of tonality, modulation, harmony, counterpoint, and melody. While a more superficial examination was given by the author to many of the orchestral and vocal works, the paper deals specifically with the complete works for piano, excluding transcriptions and teaching pieces. The individual works are treated in chronological order; summaries are presented in Chapter II (in outline form) and Chapter XXV.

Prokofiev's devices were for the most part outgrowths of previously-known techniques of compositions, which he merely moulded and modified to suit his his own needs. His forms, scales, chords, and progressions are taken from various sources but are rarely new.

In harmony, chords are tertian and roots move largely by fourth and fifth or by half-step. Chordal modulations are frequently enharmonic; favored chords for this purpose are those of the augmented sixth and those based on the whole-tone scale. Polyharmonic progressions normally move toward a single tonic. There are occasional passages which feature impressionistic progressions (parallel chords, irregular root movements, etc.). Added sixths and major sevenths are common.

Scales used include the major and all forms of minor, the modes, the scale consisting of alternate whole and half-steps, and both the chromatic and whole-tone scales. The same scale is not retained for any length of time, and harmony and melody are rarely bound by the same scale. Polytonality is used occasionally. Regardless of scale, the tones a half-step above and below both tonic and dominant are stressed. In addition, certain individual pitches had specific connotations for the composer, in any key; particularly important in this respect are the tones c, e, b, and ab.

Prokofiev's music is largely linear, though interspersed with strong chordal cadences. Frequently "pseudo-chords" are formed by non-harmonic tones moving within lines which pass up and down scales, particularly the chromatic. Scrupulous care is given to voice-leading. The most commonly-used contrapuntal device is the combining of themes. Augmentation and diminution used simultaneously with the original motive, ostinato, and pedal point, are used more than ordinary imitation. Two-voice contrapuntal passages are based on interval rather than chord.

Melodies fall into types in this style. Their common ancestor, the humorous tune, achieves its effect by various kinds of incongruous juxtapositions: awkward leaps, rhythmic interruptions, "wrong notes," abrupt enharmonic modulations, scales which end in the wrong key through the use of too many notes. A certain kind of tragic theme uses many of the same devices along with more serious effects, such as the stylistic "grief tone," the major seventh in the soprano added to a major or minor triad. The lyrical theme uses tertian harmonic outlines with abrupt modulations. The broad, sweeping melody wanders through many diatonic systems, changing one sharp pr flat at a time until the cadence, when several are changed at once. Sequence, repetition, and motivic development are used in many melodies. A characteristic melodic device is the "closing-in," a grouping of chromatic tones so that distances above and below the central tone are balanced; the simplest example of this is the melodic diminished third with its resolution.

 

Last edited: Jul 8, 2021

Sarcasm is not a bad thing. People keep quoting its relevance to wit, but what sarcasm unconsciously does to the open-minded is direct them to seeing an alternative point of view which depending on context can be positive or negative.

I love where she takes it from 00:50 and her low end and cluster harmony after 03:42 and 05:58 with all the overtones, her out gentility in the 7 minute range and more. She covers a lot of human emotions in this. Talented lady.
"Prokofiev takes the piss chromatically with style and elegance" ???? That might be the funniest thing you have said to date. It does though as I said, cover a lot of human emotions.

Edit - I just caught the bottom. Yes that explains it nicely "A characteristic melodic device is the "closing-in," a grouping of chromatic tones so that distances above and below the central tone are balanced" - I listened first and read the detail after.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jul 8, 2021

Another expression of your big ego. No your not even getting banned. There is no need for it.
You depicted yourself so clearly that I doubt anyone would care about what you say.
You're not important enough to deserve to get banned, sorry.

 

Oh boy... you overdid yourself Oly
Oly is the man

 

Hi again,

Just adding something interesting almost off-topic info, I asked before about chord notations a full list of symbols, I just found today all the symbols of music notation, not just chords https://www.w3.org/2021/03/smufl14/ pretty useful for music writers or music apps.

The Johnston is used in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pitch_intervals this is how I found this standard. I am also slowly checking each of the creators of these standards, really interesting and cool musicians.

Also I found another standard by the same group that is quite interesting. https://www.w3.org/2021/06/musicxml40/tutorial/hello-world/ https://www.musicxml.com/
It's a XML standard to share music scores between people, apps or just to save it in a standard format.

Now I have pretty accurate and standard data for representation, so good that I found some problems in that Wikipedia page, I just reported two issues.

And sorry, this is very related to what I am doing that is spread across many threads in this forum, Thanks for your help! all of you, great inputs, and keep expanding a-major-tonality-range

 

This is intriguing. After reading some posts I just don't know what the final result is. Did anyone end up expanding it?

 

Looks like we will never know for sure...