Yea, it doesn't seem like the architecture switch is going to be the issue as it is inevitable. Apple going this route after constantly changing OS's is the nail in the foot. I believe the potential for a breakthrough could be with PCs and their transition, but then again Windows... This definitely feels like we're going back to the 80's when Apple had very minimal software available before intel Macs though.

 

In the keynode they also mentioned that they work on high performance graphic chips and gaming.
Imagine if apple would release an 'affordable' powerful computer..., that might change the whole computer landscape.
Even for game developers which can seamless release games for all iOS devices as well as macOS.
Or iOS Music apps on macOS...
Interesting move but highly dependent on the pricetag.

 

Last edited: Jun 24, 2020

Well, i agree it's a smaller market but it really isn't as small. Music is everywhere. I mean wth can anyone imagine life without music ? It just has been underrated because nowadays everyone can go to youtube and other web places and listen to almost everything that has been released till the dawn of times for free. We should not forget music and audio in general is a large part of the game and movie industry too. Imho, we have been underpaid for so many years that we came to believe we are no longer as significant as other markets which to me is false. So yes small it is, but not small enough to neglect it.

Yep and so did i. I mean that Quadra machine of mine never performed anywhere close to advertised. And somewhere along the line Steve (RIP) came back and his leadership saved Apple from extinction. He was smart and quick to realize the benefits of compatibility and performance and switched to x86 cpus. Now he's gone and Apple think they 're following his paradigm but imho they 're not. Unless compatibility with Android and Linux is the new best kept secret lol. Of course they 're confident they don't need their machines to be compatible with Windows and to this i could agree. But computing performance? Apple is traditionally used by the creative minds of the industry who many times need real horsepower. I have trouble seeing their move coming to real fruition but i will stand corrected and welcome it if they pull it off.
As for me, i am -as you- one of the heretics lol, i moved to pcs in the late 90s because i wanted to build my comps with no restrictions.
Cheers
PS: That Celeron 300A, man, one my closest buddies had it @450mhz for 4-5 yrs and gaming 24/7 'till it fkn literally wore out. But wtf, that was one great piece of engineering.

 

Last edited: Jun 24, 2020

Maybe, just maybe that's because there's no $400 computer from apple.

 

first, I disagree about the horsepower thing. there are many PC's with Windows or Linux that can give you great results for less the price of apple for sure.
second, Apple and its workers are definetly not the so called "creative minds of the industry" - since Apple was born with the sin of copying anyone else, trying to make things different with their own logo imho. just check it out...PCs and windows...then Macs.
MP3 players and the ipod after it and so on.
but, like you - I believe that Apple's effort to create a new machine would be in vane due to price, software problems, system stuff etc

 

LoL Apple ARMed still not out and ppl starts to fight over the net! Keep calm and relax...lets wait, we need to survive to Covid-19 first...

 

That seamed to turn around in teh last years, just watch how modern Notebook look like Before Apple nearby no any other company used chiclet keys dame with aluminum unibody housing... razer *cough* Competition is a great thing, without apple would maybe still have phat ugly plastic laptops which looks from the bottom like imperial cruiser

 

I get you and I mostly agree. But I'm convinced if Windows PCs were to make the switch to ARM we would have another shitstorm in PC threads.

Still, it's clear some people with irrational hate towards Apple take advantage of this complex moments to say BS.

 

That wasn't @taskforce's point.

 

Apple came to horsepower when they went Intel and became pcs with a different OS, and that is what i have said so many times here and what i meant. Even if most Macs are somehow inferior to a powerful custom pc, pros can harness more power by networking more than one computer and it's been done for ages.
"Apple and its workers" what ? I never spoke about those who work at Apple but the users of their comps and its certain that for a very long time Apple comps have been used by content creators of all sorts and many scientists as well. Through out the 80s and most of the 90s Apple comps were the main choice for any artist or digital creator.
As for what was born from copying anyone else you should get your facts straight. Apple precedes pcs and Windows. They came to fruition as a company by combining experimental ideas and prototypes like the mouse which were not commercially released anywhere but surely copied from Xerox Park's R&D (but under official agreement with Xerox) and bringing them to mass production for the people to enjoy. They essentially created the P(ersonal) C(omputer) category, therefore they were justifiably deemed innovators.
Lastly i apologize for calling you names although i did mean it. I mean, how do you call a person who goes about putting a dislike on the main subject and then posts too many times on the very subject he doesn't like and with half baked knowledge. Ahh wth...
Cheers
PS: I 'd skip the memes if i were you. They either don't impress nor they help you make a point because you know less than what you are trying to show, constantly generalizing about much more delicate and intricate subjects that consist of variable factors.

 

as far as I know, (overpriced) Microsoft Surface Pro X, which is using Microsoft SQ1 (= Qualcomm Adreno 685), is basically a debacle in terms of software usability, no wonder there's literally no other ARM-based Windows 10 device since October 2019
no people bother to talk about Windows 10 and ARM despite it exists for consumers almost a year already actually

just a few references:

my point is, while Apple is (at least pretending) to start a smooth transition to ARM, Microsoft has failed to provide (and, more importantly, communicate comprehensibly enough) basic functionality even almost year later

 

Last edited: Jun 24, 2020

Oh the fanboys dont want to look at that video.

 

Good one!

They tried it and nobody bought it. Here is very little hope that Apple users will be equally smart.

And I say this as an Apple user.

 

I disagree. met loads of extremely creative people using simple PC with DOS Win' 95 etc. many artists had really cool stuff back then, windows or mac.
which is why some people can make decent music in any computer, new, old, powerful or not - but that's my opinion and will always be.
I believe that people can still do some nice stuff in simple computers, and not buy the machines that can bankrupt someone.

I still disagree. Apple is not an innovative product maker, past, present and future imho. their technological and functional use and impact are very limited for my usage, as well as the ordinary average person.
but innovation aside, a business is business. if it makes money for its investors, it's not a bad thing for sure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer#Digital_computers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc.

sorry i forgot to mention, I remember a few interesting things and controversies regarding apple's management and business ethics, tbh, I remembered those for years. their practices are absolutely shadowy and even frightening for me. I believe that more criticism needs to be drawn out regarding Apple.

Labor practices [quoted from wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc. ]
Further information: Criticism of Apple Inc. § Labor practices
The company advertised its products as being made in America until the late 1990s; however, as a result of outsourcing initiatives in the 2000s, almost all of its manufacturing is now handled abroad. According to a report by The New York Times, Apple insiders "believe the vast scale of overseas factories, as well as the flexibility, diligence and industrial skills of foreign workers, have so outpaced their American counterparts that "Made in the U.S.A." is no longer a viable option for most Apple products".[526]

In 2006, the Mail on Sunday reported on the working conditions of the Chinese factories where contract manufacturers Foxconn and Inventec produced the iPod.[527] The article stated that one complex of factories that assembled the iPod and other items had over 200,000 workers living and working within it. Employees regularly worked more than 60 hours per week and made around $100 per month. A little over half of the workers' earnings was required to pay for rent and food from the company.[528][529][530][531]

Apple immediately launched an investigation after the 2006 media report, and worked with their manufacturers to ensure acceptable working conditions.[532] In 2007, Apple started yearly audits of all its suppliers regarding worker's rights, slowly raising standards and pruning suppliers that did not comply. Yearly progress reports have been published since 2008.[533] In 2011, Apple admitted that its suppliers' child labor practices in China had worsened.[534]

The Foxconn suicides occurred between January and November 2010, when 18[535] Foxconn (Chinese: 富士康) employees attempted suicide, resulting in 14 deaths—the company was the world's largest contract electronics manufacturer, for clients including Apple, at the time.[535][536][537] The suicides drew media attention, and employment practices at Foxconn were investigated by Apple.[538] Apple issued a public statement about the suicides, and company spokesperson Steven Dowling said:

[Apple is] saddened and upset by the recent suicides at Foxconn ... A team from Apple is independently evaluating the steps they are taking to address these tragic events and we will continue our ongoing inspections of the facilities where our products are made.[539]

The statement was released after the results from the company's probe into its suppliers' labor practices were published in early 2010. Foxconn was not specifically named in the report, but Apple identified a series of serious labor violations of labor laws, including Apple's own rules, and some child labor existed in a number of factories.[539] Apple committed to the implementation of changes following the suicides.[540]

Also in 2010, workers in China planned to sue iPhone contractors over poisoning by a cleaner used to clean LCD screens. One worker claimed that he and his coworkers had not been informed of possible occupational illnesses.[541] After a high suicide rate in a Foxconn facility in China making iPads and iPhones, albeit a lower rate than that of China as a whole,[542] workers were forced to sign a legally binding document guaranteeing that they would not kill themselves.[543] Workers in factories producing Apple products have also been exposed to n-hexane, a neurotoxin that is a cheaper alternative than alcohol for cleaning the products.[544][545][546]

A 2014 BBC investigation found excessive hours and other problems persisted, despite Apple's promise to reform factory practice after the 2010 Foxconn suicides. The Pegatron factory was once again the subject of review, as reporters gained access to the working conditions inside through recruitment as employees. While the BBC maintained that the experiences of its reporters showed that labor violations were continuing since 2010, Apple publicly disagreed with the BBC and stated: "We are aware of no other company doing as much as Apple to ensure fair and safe working conditions".[540]

In December 2014, the Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights published a report which documented inhumane conditions for the 15,000 workers at a Zhen Ding Technology factory in Shenzhen, China, which serves as a major supplier of circuit boards for Apple's iPhone and iPad. According to the report, workers are pressured into 65-hour work weeks which leaves them so exhausted that they often sleep during lunch breaks. They are also made to reside in "primitive, dark and filthy dorms" where they sleep "on plywood, with six to ten workers in each crowded room." Omnipresent security personnel also routinely harass and beat the workers.[547][548]

In 2019, there were reports stating that some of Foxconn's managers had used rejected parts to build iPhones, and that Apple was investigating the issue.[549]

Criticism and controversies [also quoted from wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc.]
Apple has been criticized for alleged unethical business practices such as anti-competitive behavior, rash litigation,[668] dubious tax tactics, production methods involving the use of sweatshop labor,[669][670][671] customer service issues involving allegedly misleading warranties and insufficient data security, and its products' environmental footprint. Critics have claimed that Apple products combine stolen and/or purchased designs that Apple claims are its original creations.[672][673] It has been criticized for its alleged collaboration with the U.S. surveillance program PRISM.[674][675]

Apple's issues regarding music over the years include those with the European Union regarding iTunes,[676] trouble over updating the Spotify app on Apple devices[677] and collusion with record labels.[678]

Apple has faced scrutiny for its tax practices, including using a Double Irish Arrangement to reduce the amount of taxes it pays.[679] A 2013 US Senate report claimed that Apple had not paid corporate taxes for five years due to its deals with the Irish government.[680] In 2016, the European Union ordered Apple to pay a fine for its actions.[681]

In 2018–19, Apple faced criticism for its failure to approve NVIDIA web drivers for GPU installed on legacy Mac Pro machines up to mid 2012 5,1 running macOS Mojave 10.14. Without Apple approved NVIDIA web drivers, Apple users are faced with replacing their NVIDIA cards with a competing supported brand, such as AMD Radeon from the list recommended by Apple.

In June 2019, Apple issued a recall for its 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15" affecting 432,000 units after reports of batteries catching fire. The recall was criticized as waiting times for replacements were up to 3 weeks and the company did not provide alternative replacements or repair options.[682][683][684]

Ireland's Data Protection Commission in Ireland also launched a privacy investigation to examine whether Apple complied with the EU's GDPR law following an investigation into how the company processes personal data with targeted ads on its platform.[685][686]

In July 2019, following a campaign by the "right to repair" movement, challenging Apple's tech repair restrictions on devices, the FTC held a workshop to establish the framework of a future nationwide Right to Repair rule. The movement argues Apple is preventing consumers from legitimately fixing their devices at local repair shops which is having a negative impact on consumers.[687][688][689]

The United States Department of Justice also began a review of big tech firms to establish whether they could be unlawfully stifling competition in a broad antitrust probe in 2019.[690][691]

In December 2019, a report found that the iPhone 11 Pro continues tracking location and collecting user data even after users have disabled location services. In response, an Apple engineer said the Location Services icon "appears for system services that do not have a switch in settings."[692]

In January 2020, US President Donald Trump slammed Apple for refusing to unlock two iPhones of a Saudi national, Mohammed Saeed Alshamrani, who shot and killed three American sailors and injured eight others in the Naval air base. The Pensacola shooting was declared an "act of terrorism" by the FBI, but Apple denied to crack the phones citing its data privacy policy.[693]

On 16 March 2020, France fined Apple € 1.1bn for colluding with two wholesalers to stifle competition and keep prices high by handicapping independent resellers. The arrangement created aligned prices for Apple products such as iPads and personal computers for about half the French retail market. According to the French regulators, the abuses occurred between 2005 and 2017, but were first discovered after a complaint by an independent reseller, eBizcuss, in 2012.[694]

all fine my friend - but i did a dislike because I don't think that the latest news is anything near good for apple users whatsoever, and nor practical (yet) it terms of full functionality in the near future or year tbh, and definetly not because the topic itself - that's ridiculous. not sure why u had to call people names, it is just unnecessary. I usually like to argue with ppl and have nice discussions as i hear an opposite opinion to my own - just like i argue with nice folks like Xupito or Notorious Green (site members).
and lastly - most YT vids are amusing, some humor is necessary during COVID 19 pandemic.
p.s - sorry for the long reply.

 

You're both right. It's very different at the same time.
Microsoft has been the first to try a few of those Surface products. A failure overall, but the first real "experiments". Apple won't release the first ARM Mac until the end of this year but has confirmed it will switch completely to them in a few years.

That's why as a PC user I'm happy to see Apple trying to pull off this big challenge first. If they succeed probably Microsoft will follow, at least partially. Probably MSoft has no hurry at all and glad to see Apple do the heavy lifting.

On the hardware technical side I pretty much agrre with all @taskforce said.

That being said, nobody's has released yet a powerful PC ARM-based CPU, so they should be remarkably different than the iPad/iPhone/Android ones.

[SPOILER: DEEP TECHNICAL SHIT FROM NOW ON. It's rough and take it with a grain of salt because many media is even less trustworthy than fanboys and I'm a bit over my head with this]

Intel's best selling point is single-core performance greatly benefited by its SIMD instructions. But partially because of that has hit a wall with 14nm technology because they seem to consume more power. AMD has kicked Intel's ass lately with multicore performance using 7nm (at similar pricing).

So for the first time seems that lower power consumption (ARM being the king) could lead to fast desktop CPUs. It allows more miniaturization and therefore more cores. Probably some of this cores would be specialized chips to improve performance. Sound processor chip, very high speed I/O (fastest SSDs, RAM,...), cache managers, .... but some of them would need new instructions.
That's the coolest part for me. The PS5 implements some dedicated chips but they're AMDs and consoles are different beasts. But I also saw it on Apple's presentation slides.

So ARM-based CPUs in theory could be very fast. In theory. Apple hasn't been focused lately on fast PC chips but they'll still have to deliver like has been commented: Final Cut users, Logic Pro, Photoshop, and so on.

 

Last edited: Jun 25, 2020

It's not as bad as it seems. First of all: what we see all day is our daw. I really don't care how the windows borders look, be it white as in osx or gray as in windows 10. I had to switch to windows 8.1 cause I had hardware that wasn't supported any more in win 7.. BEFORE switching I was totally devasted, oh my, fuck, now I have to let my beloved win 7 go... after the switch I was "hey, this is fucking stable.. and fast.. and slick.." installed classic shell and was happy. Same with windows 10. Before switching totally scared, oh my god, this is going to be hell.. uhm.. no.. even more stable than win 8.1. Until some weeks ago I was on LTSB 2016, that's the version meant for money machines, they get security updates, but no feature update. now I'm on LTSC 2019, same thing, everythings fine. classic shell for the looks and even my handy nuendo 4 crack from windows xp runs perfectly. besides some other really old software.
sure, it's different from osx, but it works. and it's cheap.

 

True, the ARM architecture is very competetive. When it started it's life at acorn as (one of the?) first risc processor(s) it was the fastest affordable chip at it's time. right now ARM cpus are explored for high end supercomputers.
I could immagine that we will see something like a 64 core desktop cpu as an ARM design quite soon.

That's awesome. What's not awesome is that apple is not known for it's user friendly transitions.
Apple will launch the new products and then it's eol for intel based software on mac.
Apple will not care for the costs developers have to deal with when it comes to porting something like pro tools, nuendo or photoshop to a whole new architecture. If avid is going to say "fuck it, we won't release on mac any more" apple itself won't care at all. they do not care for the working class hero. they care for the "i need every new iphone the week it exists"-costumer.

 

Lol. Do you actually read the links you posted ? And to give props where they should go what you say about people using MS DOS making music is hillarious. I was there, professional musician since 1983 and all throughout the rest of the 80s and 90s 'till now.
But let's make it more fun shall we ?
For every famous (or less famous if you like) record you can name that was made on MS DOS i will name 20 made on MacOS. You keep speculating and generalizing, no professional in their right mind would ever think to use a Windows machine in the 80s and up to '95 pcs were too slow to compete and windows under DOS had a myriad problems with latency etc etc. You could do some stuff but that was limited to just midi or trackers triggering small one-shot samples. I mean wth are you talking about...
And even now, go to equipboard.com and see what gear every pro uses. If it is less than 80% of the pros who use Macs i will shut the fk up and deem you winner in the thread. (SPOILER: It's not )
Cheers
EDIT: And for those who may not know i am a pc user and builder.

 

Last edited: Jun 25, 2020

In fact I just read the fastest super-computer is made of ARM CPUs only. But that's like thousands of PC's on a computer farm.
Completely different from one-CPU high end desktop computers.