Hello friends, how are you? I want to join a virtual instrument with a real one so that it sounds like a single sound (not a double sound). For example... I recorded a bass, then I switched to midi and I put a bass synth, but it still sounded like two sounds. Then...I put a bus track and sent to it the real bass and the synth, then, I put the guitar rig and a bass preset...there the sound got more united...but it still sounds like double (chorus). I quantized and put in the same tune both sounds. For some other reason it still sounds double... Do you know any technique to do this? I also intend to do it with the acoustic and electric guitar.

 

I think the main problem here is the (micro) timing. As soon as the notes start with some ms offset it doesn't sound like a single instrument anymore.
The only solutions I see are either to generate MIDI triggers or a quantisation grid from the real instrument.

 

Hi averanger , how are you? Happy New Year!

It's all recorded by line, if that's what you mean by (mic) As for the quantification, I did it this way I recorded the actual bass, quantized it with studio one (which has an option to quantize audio), then used melodyne and set it to pitch and exported it to midi. I set the midi and it matches perfectly with the bass samples I think the problem is in the different frequencies. To say.. My bass has a high at 1k and the bass I apply at 2k, 3k, etc. Same with the bass. My bass for example has in a 80hz and the virtual bass in other frequencies And even if I try to dominate the frequencies with fabfilter, I still hear it double... and even if I make a cut in the treble... But it really sounds very nice, I mean... if I could make it sound like a single sound, it would sound great... even more so on the acoustic guitar (which my acoustic guitar is very bad, by the way)

 

Hi ryck,

thanks, I'm fine. Happy New Year to you too, I hope all is good.

Ah, you used audio quantisation, wasn't sure if I got that right. Did you try to run both through the same amp and cabinet?

Also uploading a short passage of the untreated tracks (without EQ etc, but already quantized and pitch corrected) and your result could give us the possibility to try it ourselves while keeping your sound goal in mind.

 

Yes, I sent it to a bus (real bass and virtual bass) and I put a bass cabinet to both of them, so that they sound together, but likewise double it, Here I send the samples ( dry ( only dry) and wet, whit amp and eq)

 

Yep, there's some phasing in it. But I meant the two basses separately so we could try, you know?

 

I'm sorry, I got it wrong. if here is the real bass and the virtual bass. but the virtual bass is not the one I want as definitive. I wish I could do it with any bass, or other instruments. that is, knowing why it sounds double

 

The only way you might ever make this work is to squash so much out of the tuning and timing to get them together you're just going to be left with a weird fake sounding mess and the point of recording a real guitar in the first place will be lost. In other words, I can't understand why you would ever try it and I would just go 100% samples if you want to go this route. Otherwise, take your real stuff and just mangle/modify it to get that added dimension of... whatever you're looking for. Like, add a parallel track of a fuzz/ octave-doubler. That's what I'd do.

 

Ok, got it. First quick diagnosis. They have different attack phases, timingwise, so the virt bass comes always behind the real one. Secondly the filter movement in the synth is too audible, doesn't fit.
Also playing grace notes with only one of them doesn't really help.

And Trurl is probably partly right, I would use a bass VSTi too, but only instead of the synth, still togehter with your real one.

 

Last edited: Jan 18, 2020

Well actually what I'm looking for are two things Fusion, get a fresh sound, of course it won't sound like a real bass or real electric. Working only with samples doesn't convince me. So... merging would be one. Of course this sample is from a normal bass. But maybe I'd like to put a synthesizer next to my real bass, but sound like one. And the other thing I'm looking for is, that my acoustic guitar sounds better, the loops and samples are not what I play, and my guitar is of bad quality, so I thought that by fusing I can get better sound. I actually did, and it does sound better, but it sounds double I hope I've explained myself.

 

I did this a month ago, it was a test, merge my accusative and a virtual one, after the failure of being able to make it sound like a single guitar, I left the project. And yesterday I had the guitar on my cell phone and I said, is this not my guitar? I thought it was another song, because it sounds better, at least for me ... then I saw that it said "mix guitar" and remember that it was the fusion I was trying then, and now I keep insisting on hahaha

 

Well, I get what you're going for and I can dig it, it's a cool idea- but if you don't want any hint of phasing or the like I think you're going to have to do things to your live instrument that will render it moot. That, or you'll put an astonishing amount of time and effort into getting the two things to track the way you want. Of course, that said, usually the cool things happen when people doggedly ignore advice like this and do something interesting. I would still consider just taking your live bass and finding a way to mutate it into something that sounds synthetic to fatten it up. However you do it, looking forward to the results.

 

Your virtual bass track is too robotically quantised. If it were me, i'd switch off the quantise grid in the midi editor, zoom in and nudge/adjust each virtual bass note to the right position that perceptually matches the audio bass. You might also need slightly modify note length & velocity to get maximum coherence. Yeah, it's drab and time-consuming, but it certainly should help getting your two sources to meld more effectively.

EDIT: idiotic typo..

 

Last edited: Jan 18, 2020

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's a good idea.

 

Thank you very much for all the opinions. They're very useful. It's true, I must put more effort and work on each note, and on the midi notes. The truth is that I know very little about midi, I was always lazy, when playing real instruments, I never gave it any importance, but now I see them as being of vital importance. Thank you all very much for the rabbits. A big greeting!

 

Since he quantised his real bass too, this is not the reason why they don't melt together.

The virt bass has to be adjusted to the real one in regards of ADSR in filter and volume. As long as these differ too much there's no way to melt them to one sound.
Imagine you layer a piano and a soft string sound. You'll never be able to make them sound as one instrument. But with two basses, guitars, or whatever, be they virtual or real, no problem because they behave the same.

 

Couldn't this be achieved modulating the plugin volume with the real bass one? Envelope follower I think is the technical term. I know, still way easier to say than to do.

What do you mean by "filter ADSR"? If it's frequency related, I'm gonna say "Eq matching!". You know it's gonna happen

Edited: I answered myself, synth stuff.

 

Last edited: Jan 19, 2020

That could be interesting. Certainly worth fooling with just to see what effect you get.

 

Good idea. You could modulate a bunch of sounds this way. Do you know of any plugin that's doing this?

Maybe Reaper offers some kind of sidechain volume modulation triggered by a certain source. I mean if a DAW offers this, it's probably Reaper.

 

You're both welcome. But I don't see your likes, ain't no love here for the nicest person...?
Just kidding... I guess...

It turns out that FabFilter Volcano 2 can do this directly (modulate/control parameters based on envelope follower). Meaning direct side-chain and ready to go.

But also all MeldaProduction plugins have envelope follower (and more) capabilities.
There should be several ones (Melda or not) that can transform audio envelope following to MIDI volume/CC. And then you can use any synth.
I think MCcGenerator, the last Melda plugin and first MIDI one, could do that. But I'm not sure if it accepts audio input or just MIDI. I'll check it out.

https://www.meldaproduction.com/MCCGenerator

I'm pretty sure it can do it, and perhaps even more (pitch follower and more crazy things).

 

Last edited: Jan 20, 2020