Well, here goes nothing!

Thank you poorlord for joining on this post, wish I could be as smooth as you!

But to me it doesn't even have anything to do with being able to play a piano roll.

I don't care what instrument you play as long as you are the one playing it and not just pushing a button.

What really bothers me about all this EDM garbage arguments is about how they all whine how there music is just as hard to make. But that is just it, you aren't making it. Your computer is.

The definition of a musician to me is a person that "performs" music. Pushing a button and hearing a sound come out of the speakers is not playing anything, your computer is playing it. So to me, electronic musicians should not be electronic musicians, they should be called composers. I think we should get this changed, so that everyone can be politically correct. And I will agree with all you EDM people, arranging and sequencing any song is just as difficult no matter what genre it is, but if that is all you are doing is arranging and sequencing a song, you are not a musician, you are a composer and your computer is the musician actually performing the parts. You can't perform that music live without any pre recorded loops, so you are just the composer hitting play, and anyone can do that (to what degree of awesome may vary). So anyone can play electronic components and make noise on them with no skill whatsoever, but composing a good song is another story.

But still, props to anyone who can compose good songs. I agree not anyone can make or arrange a good song, but anyone can hit the damn buttons on an mpc. Again though, I will give credit to anyone who can compose a good song regardless of what devices you use. But that does not make you a musician, that makes you a composer.

Take me for example. I am an excellent musician, I can play the shit out of the guitar. But, I suck at writing songs. So I am a good musician, but a shitty composer.

We need to get the world to realize this so these pricks can stop thinking they are smarter than everyone else, and better musicians than everyone else, when they aren't even musicians at all, just composers!


DOWN WITH THE TERM "ELECTRONIC MUSICIAN" IT SHOULD BE ELECTRONIC "COMPOSERS!"

 

So you come here to rant about music, conduct some experiment and act superior, not sharing anything with others, some tips, knowledge, participating in some actual conversation that not involves your views on music and taste, how you see everything and how we are wrong.

Just reading what I wrote.....bon voyage

 

I couldn't agree with you more and this is the reason that I am studying arrangement, composition, music theory, etc. Beyond that I also expose myself to much classical and jazz music. I have nothing but the utmost respect for anyone that plays an instrument or is involved in learning one. In fact as I mentioned in my post even though I am interested in making predominantly electronic music of one kind or another (Dance, Drum n Bass, Dubstep, Electro, House, IDM, Industrial, Techno, Trance) I still am learning to play the piano and I devote much time to musical studies. Not only because I know it will bring more depth and emotion into my music but because I want to understand music as a language. Nothing would make me happier than the day when I can freely play the piano with precision and skill. I also think that taking that one video as representation of a standard electronic musical example is unfair. There are plenty of electronic musicians that synthesize their own timbres and sequence their own drums, percussion, etc. Even if someone uses a sample of an Amen break you have to realize that because of the fact that electronic musicians have to compose for so many different forces they don't always have the skill or the time to invest a lifetime in each instrument so they might use a sample or a loop instead. I would also say that there is plenty of electronic music that elicits emotion. I feel that the gentlemen in this video is eliciting the same emotion that this particular piece of music was created with. It's unfair to compare it with Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 14 as they are two disparate genres with contrasting emotional qualities. The emotion in a piece of music has much more to do with composition and music theory than it does with genre. Certain notes and their relationships elicit certain kinds of feelings. Sequencing allows us to arrange music that would not be possible or at the very least would be very difficult to play live and it does so with utmost precision which might be desirable for genres that require quantized drums. How could one artist play drums, percussion, bass, electric guitar, pads, strings, textures, sound effects, etc. all at the same time? It's just not possible or at the very least not very likely unless you're in a bad with members that can take over some of these tasks or unless you are paying a musician to come and help you out. This is why I consider both integral to the amazing palette of musical tools and knowledge that we have available to us today.

I can understand your frustration with music these days as I also feel that a lot of genres are stagnating and people aren't pushing into unexplored territory as much. Music is a formula made to recoup investments and that is mostly the fault of the public that buys these types of records and the music industry that caters to these people. I generally eschew the mainstream and I am a big advocate of the indie and underground movements because I feel that there is much more creativity, diversity and good music to be found there. Once it has made it from there to the masses all that was good becomes cliche and derivative. People care more about ego than art and they want to get that sound so they can sound like everyone else. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Don't imitate, innovate. I think comparing old-school musicians and contemporary musicians is like comparing apples and oranges. People forget that playing an instrument and producing electronic music doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Many of the artists I personally listen to play at the very least one instrument and some many more than this. Along with those skills they are also masters of sound design and sequencing. We often forget that people don't really listen to music because it is pretentious or complex, they listen to music because it makes them feel or connect. If it manages to achieve this end then in my opinion it has succeeded no matter how it was made. Brian Eno (who plays real instruments) once talked about a piece that he wrote that was very simple to create. It was basically female choir sounds but he combined them in such a way that they would all be of different lengths and come together at different times, I assume by using polymeters. Though the investment in effort wasn't staggering and though he didn't play it live with conventional instruments, the work stands on its own as a beautiful piece of music.

 

You can say whatever you want as long as you do it with some respect to your fellow man and as long as you're open to counter-argument. We're all here because we love music not because we love conflict. I'm truly interested in what you have to say and so long as there is respect we can totally talk about this like adults. Let me start by saying that nobody here, certainly not I, thinks that they are smarter than everyone else and nobody made a comment anywhere to this effect. If there is one thing that I remind myself every day is that as much as I know about any topic, I really don't know anything. I feel no shame in saying that as this opens the door to the possibility of knowledge. We all just want some respect and most people when getting attacked would act in the same way. I also ask that you read all the responses I have made so I don't need to retype all the counter-arguments that I have brought up already. My counter-argument will start with a definition of musician.

Musician
1. a person who makes music a profession, especially as a performer of music.
2. any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music.

Okay now let's discuss your next argument that they aren't making it, their computer is. First I should mention that this statement is an assumption as plenty of electronic musicians play their instruments so already this is biased. I'll quote an earlier post: "Sequencing allows us to arrange music that would not be possible or at the very least would be very difficult to play live and it does so with utmost precision which might be desirable for certain genres. How could one artist play drums, percussion, bass, leads, electric guitar, pads, strings, textures, sound effects, etc. all at the same time? It's just not possible or at the very least not very likely unless you're in a bad with members that can take over some of these tasks or unless you are paying a bunch of musicians to come and help you out." Also with that logic you would see a problem with someone programming a computer to do physical labor? It's not me doing the physical labor after all, I simply use my mental faculties to press keys that arrange into logical patterns of code that the computer can understand in order for me to accomplish the end result I desire which in this analogy is physical labor. In my opinion the end result is getting done so for all intents and purposes I have succeeded in my intentions. I reiterate what I said in my response to Voo: We often forget that people don't listen to music because it is pretentious or complex, they listen to music because it makes them feel or connect. If it manages to achieve this end then in my opinion it has succeeded no matter how it was made or how it is played. However that is not to say that I think that artists should get on stage and press play because that bothers me too. At the very least they should somehow be involved with the music even if it's just accompanying with pads or the arpeggios or some other type of interaction that I am plunking my hard-earned money down to see. I'll also add that plenty of artists I listen to have expressed their annoyance at shows where the musicians are not hands on and just hit a button. How they perform the music is separate from how they make the music in the first place as at that time they aren't doing anything even remotely as simple as the act of pushing a button. When they're making it they're trying out arrangements, compositions, thinking about music theory, synthesizing timbres, working on effects, etc. And by the way many artists, me included, play a melodic line using a midi controller not just stamp notes in the piano roll so that is in a sense capturing a performance live is it not? When I try out compositions at home I push buttons on my MIDI controller and instead of it working like a piano with a hammer striking a string, utilizing a sounding board and sympathetic resonance I am simply triggering a sound that I created digitally and the sound is coming out of my speakers at the velocity and pitch of the key I pressed. How is it any different? Also you're completely discounting the fact that I ALSO created the sound that I am triggering. If anything that is the equivalent of creating the piano sound that you're playing.

Are you really making that argument against MPC's and pads after watching my videos? Can you do that? It takes real talent to be able to put on a performance like those guys did. The second part of this argument is a challenge if you're up to the task. The very least you can do before coming to a conclusion about something is trying it out. The rules of the challenge are as follows: if you think that it's so easy to make then do it. If you're really down to step up and prove your point then make a track for each of the genres that you are revolting against. Don't ask anyone for help as I'm sure you wouldn't need any being that they're super easy and all come down to pressing buttons and the computer accomplishing all the hard stuff for you. You must synthesize at least 3 elements in the track besides your kick, preferably bass, leads and effects and there must be at least some layering of timbres. You don't have to synthesize a snare, clap, tom, hi-hats or cymbals, feel free to use samples if you like. You can use someone else's sampled or preset pads. The kick must be in key with your bass line. The song must follow the general arrangement of the style you're writing for. If your counter-argument to that will be that you admitted that arrangement and composition takes skill and you don't particularly excel in these areas there's one thing you're forgetting that is of vital importance: the sequencing is part of the performance. If you take me up on my offer be honest about the challenge and the resulting work. I am sincerely interested in the results of this so don't have someone do it for you. If you can't do it I won't laugh at you or make you feel like crap and believe me I'm a man of my word. *yes*

 

You pulled the worst example; Can't be serious. You had to go out of your way for this, humm?
How can you tell what everybody's emotion is compare to yours? As a matter of fact, that emotion that you are talking about comes from the sound that people hears, not from what people see. Music's power to move people relies first and foremost on sound. The majority of people (which is almost everybody except the-never-made-musicians) couldn't care less how a piece of music was made, what they HEAR is what moves them. Music can stand without the visual; anything added is a bonus. Yeah, artists put out videos and go on Tour, these are bonuses to music as the business side of it. But Music itself? nah!! nothing needed but the sound; no matter what, where and how that sound was produced. We can sit here and discuss it all day; you pulling off-the-center videos of more people putting together a few samples to recreate an already released track. When the dust settles, it all comes down to this: DO YOU AND LET OTHERS DO THEM. Nobody forces you to listen/watch/follow/share these type stuff or anything else you don't want to. With so many ways to listen to your own variety of music nowadays (totally bypassing local radio programming), how come you even bother with what others are doing that you don't like? I don't get it.

There's a few thought on this one: First off, that was a way off comparison, it won't make the cut, but I'll save my keystrokes. However, what I'll waste typing is, you need to stop complaining out of flat air. Grab your best collection of music and stick to it; increase it by doing search for what you like. Rock'N'Roll is still around, you seek it and you'll find some gems to add your stash. Classics? great you'll find these too. I don't care, Mumba? Well, go ahead find them. Whatever you are into, you can make an environment where it is what you are surrounded by. Consume what you want, ignore what you can't stand.

........................................

Now as opposed to pulling a random dude putting "Firestarte" together, let's watch Morgan Page (an official producer in the game) in the studio instead. You may don't like/hate EDM or how it is produced and that I'm not gonna challenge you because it is your right not to like it. However, you can't be out of your mind to tell me that this guy doesn't now a thing or two about music. You can't tell me that because you don't like that type of music that nobody else wouldn't find "emotion" in his music. NO WAY!!

 

Let me introduce you to Richard D. James aka Aphex Twin. He has been described by The Guardian as "the most inventive and influential figure in contemporary electronic music". You can not like it because it's mellow and maybe you're not into that but don't tell me you don't feel something when you listen to the following tracks and you don't think it has value and merit. And he also composes stuff that is much much harder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dstx5qKHGnI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLHtV_S2HZw

 

Never said I thought it was easy to compose a song, I said it's easy to perform (play on pads or push play), so learn how to read. I actually said

Now

See, that is exactly my point, performer of music, or skilled in music. OK agreed, good definition. But like I said you are not performing the sounds, the computer is. And by this definition that makes Record execs musicians too, cuz they make music there profession also. Lastly, to be skilled in music. Does that mean skilled at arranging it, performing it, listening to it. I would say by that definition it would mean skilled at performing it, pushing play or triggering loops is not performing. Your at the performance, performing but not actually performing the music itself. More like performing like an entertainer, like a wrestler performs fake fights.

congratulations to that small group of people!

congratulations to this small group of people also!

So, besides a few people you are clamoring for that play real instruments and can actually play an MPC like a drum set, the majority are still just composers to me, not musicians. And learn how to read, I never said it wasn't creative, or didn't contain complex musical theory elements, or that you are not allowed to like it, or that just cuz it was composed by a composer that it is not good, or that good music can't be made on electronic equipment. It is all opinion, and its just my opinion that they are not musicians, majority are composers only!


And I think piano is a bad example of an instrument to compare cuz it is similar to electronic devices. There is only one articulation. Key press. Other instruments have multiple articulations, that would require a lot of practice and skill to perform live, just as proved in your MPC pad playing videos. It took a lot of skill and practice for those guys to be able to play those pads like a live acoustic drumset. More work than most composers are probably willing to do.

And that brings me to that last point!

Exactly, most of you would never be able to play that music, that is why you are composers, not performing musicians.

 

And I could play acoustic drums, don't need to learn how to play an MPC like a drum set, and I would never waste my time doing something I don't enjoy, like making EDM music.

 

In case those last two were too wussy for you it's cool because I'm diverse. This one is going to drive my point home. Try finding a way to perform all the elements on stage with one musician and tell me it's not a great track.

You know what I think? I think that we're all in our private traps, clamped in them, and none of us can ever get out. We scratch and we claw, but only at the air, only at each other, and for all of it, we never budge an inch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdvEtazD3rY

 

I never said you should only have one musician, what are you greedy? Most bands have more than one person in them just for that reason, cuz actually performing music is hard. That is why they are separate to me. Composers and musicians. Not saying some musicians aren't good composers, or composers can't be good musicians. I am just saying that the majority of people in the EDM genre that call themselves musicians, are usually just composers.

 

And if that Noisuf X was supposed to be hard, not wussy, it was about as hard as my 103 year old grandfather's family jewels.

 

I don't play well with others or if I can I don't generally want to. That's the honest truth. Plus I find that you are more likely to adapt your art to accommodate other views which can be cool but it can also be stifling. I think the act of sequencing a song is a performance. You can get precise with the music in a way that you can't on stage. You have to realize that by holding your views you are also basically saying that all Industrial artists aren't real musicians. They sequence their tracks just like dance musicians do and the only difference is the arrangement, choice of timbres and processing. Besides a few bands that I'm aware of most don't perform every single thing live. They may play an accompaniment or something at best but usually there is just too much going on in the music and you lose the element of being precise. It's like the difference between a movie and a live taping of that movie. In one the work might be done beforehand but the end result is more impressive visually. Maybe technically it's not as impressive at the moment of delivery because you don't get to see all the hard work that went into producing it. Or you can have a live taping of a movie in which you get to see all the technical details but what you're watching isn't as interesting.

 

and catalyst, not trying to be a jerk, or rude, or attack you, but i just want to state the way i perceive things about you.


You are like the nerdy hall monitor with your security sticker badge and always ready to hop up and tattle tale to the administrators.


Again, sorry not poking fun, just trying to be honest. But it is kind of funny! And if you are totally mad at me for saying this, I will delete this comment, let me know!

 

Ha!

You admit to being a dick and unlikeable, and you wonder why you get in arguments around here. Trying to make me feel like a troll, it's you man! Yeah I said some stupid comments (and apologized for them), but you were trolling that argument out yesterday, anyway I am not mad at you for it. I forgive you, cuz that quote is probably the closest thing to an apology anyone has gotten from you. I can let it go, you should try to relax a little too and learn how to let stuff go. And I did troll that conversation too, just to see how far you wanted to go. Sorry!

 

It was supposed to demonstrate the value of sequencing and that it's not always possible to play every element on stage. It's one German guy and he is a very respected musician. Industrial is just sleeker if that makes sense and honestly that's why I prefer it over metal. I don't want to just listen to guitars in my harsh music, I want more diversity and some actual synthesis. You're comparing the timbres of distorted electric guitar and the timbres in that video which are completely different. Also how heavy something is has no bearing on its merit. You seem to judge everything based on your own genre and that again is comparing apples and oranges and explains why you have a problem with anything different.

 

I don't generally get into arguments around here. I never said I was a dick or unlikeable, I actually get along very well with people but I don't like them. I mean in general not specific people whom I might enjoy talking to or hanging out with. I wasn't trolling anything, I came to the thread to talk about Industrial but when you started insulting a few people that were just trying to share what they were passionate about it pissed me off and I don't think anyone deserved to feel like crap because they make music that's different from what you're used to.

 

And your last comment is all valid points, but being able to even play a song at 90% (like a rock band), is still better than playing just a few pads at your concert with the other 80% of the song pre recorded (like an EDM concert).

 

Sorry, thought you stated you had been in a few arguments over that very same topic, I must have smoked to much crack again!

And you were the one that said it was not wussy! I assumed that meant hard.

As for comparing to my genre only I wasn't. You were saying about being able to play all the elements live would be impossible and your saying I am comparing that to metal bands only. I was thinking more like an orchestra or symphony, lots of elements there, but still done live by people.

 

I did but it's only been over this exact same topic and that's why I am tired of hearing about it. People don't want to wait until they learn an instrument to do something they enjoy. For me it provides catharsis and a positive outlet for negative feelings that I can't easily cope with. Is that so crazy? I think it's great if someone wants to learn an instrument but it's art man, there are no rules.

I meant it wasn't as mellow as the Aphex Twin tracks. I figured you would probably not be into him and might not feel my point of view because of that. If that was the case who cares because he's a very talented musician and I'm sure some people enjoyed it.

Concerning the orchestra comment: an orchestra has a lot of musicians and again...apples and oranges. You're still throwing that ball and expecting your cat to bring it back for you.

Concerning the hall monitor comment, you can say what you want. It doesn't matter to me. I like this place and we have rules like anywhere else. I actually tried to help you out so that you could relax, not get banned and other people didn't have to feel like crap. You don't know my intentions so don't assume that you know me or what I'm about man. I would consider it insulting if I actually cared what you thought.

Anyway tater it's been fun but I'm going to go smoke a joint, maybe watch something to unwind a little and then knock the fuck out.

 

Music is Music good and bad, taste filters into that as well ...but musicianship thats a different thing.... case in point

Saw Jane's Addiction many years ago... during the show the venue lost power about half way through the set. instead of calling it quits they came out with acoustic guitars and all kinds of things for the drummer to bang on and finished the set and it was AMAZING & Rocked!


Years later im on tour doing lights with an electro/industrial band with all kinds of gadgets on stage and playback..or as they call it "sound reinforcement ". all the complicated bits were on the playback.. and the playback wasnt working. so they just cancelled the show and didnt even try. i asked them..why not just do a couple of acoustic songs give the fans "something " and they said NO as they couldn't fucking actually Play. They were on a major label.


Musicianship is not arranging loops or hits all in 4/4 into something and calling it a song. its linking musical noted together and crafting a song. this can be played on ANY instrument not just if you have a certain plug in , sampler or what ever that is dependant on samples & loops created by someone else.


just my 2 cents