No counterpoint is the oposite of chord, its hard to understand that when the culture is chordal. The tonal region of a counterpois is the result os the modulation of the melodies, so chord, when apears, is a consequence, not a cause.
As I said the interaction of todays instrumentarion is more rhythmic (like bass or drums) than a develop.
So do not use classical! Please
Here we go to another problem: Composition.
Pop music is always about cut and paste, but composition is about development.
No problem with chordal, Beethoven was very chordal, but with his them his develop a Synphony.
I do love Rush, really, but is poorly in the sense that an idea is consequence of another.
Look at the serial music, is a prision right? Sure you can do beaty things, some of my friends start do like serial music when I explain what is, how you develop.
Imagine a book with beggining, middle and end... is a development.
When we see a film you expect that, and when you do not have, you say it sucks right?
In the classical time we have 3 hours of synphony, Bach have to compose 6 or 8 hours of new music to play in the weekend.
So today is just a music of moment but we wanna a fim with struture.
I wil not talk about experimentalism like concrete music that is already incorporated in pop.
So the comercial music is tine, when we heard a music without drum we say: boring!
The point is: because music is not teached for everyone we do not expect structure or development, music is not to be heard is for dancing or extracting a tooth
So music is a function that is for a purpouse, and hearing becames a secound function.
This is a hard debate similar when a man show to Beethoven his theme... in fact was a bass and to prove Beethoven made The Goldberg Variations. A masterpiece of composition that is hard to understand even for the well trained.
I do not believe that a technic is exclusive of a style. Each thing you can learn is valid, great musicians always heard everything.
There a lot of good musicians in every style but my sadness is that so few understand the difference.
The lema of my friend is: lets do music for stupid people, and I answer that if you make this we will ever have stupid listeners. Music, as a art, is a provocation, a language, a consequence and a history.
Stay tuned to all

 

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Personally I study classical even if I will never become an amazing pianist. I simply want to deeply understand the language of music and classical forms the basis of functional harmony. It certainly has a lot of lessons and techniques that we can all learn from. I simultaneously study the theory behind other genres because they also have something to add to the language. To compare them is to compare apples and oranges. I like your spirit because you may know music theory better than a lot of electronic musicians yet you don't feel the need to put them down and I really respect that. Music, like everything else, evolves and to close yourself off to that is to really miss out. Every piece of music, even in those genres we may not like, is absolutely brimming with lessons that can be gleaned from it. We just have to be objective and open-minded enough to hear them. 

SUBERB

 

I understand that counterpoint is melodic but when writing modern music you must take the harmony into account which is based on the chord structure of a song (similar, oblique, contrary) and how those melodic forces work within it. That is what I was trying to say. Concerning techniques I am referencing production techniques not music theory. Even in terms of theory-related techniques wasn't improvisation frowned down upon in classical times yet jazz musicians do this regularly? Also the use of dissonant intervals like 7ths were used so regularly in jazz that they became a stable harmony. Wouldn't this have also been looked down upon during certain classical periods? Wouldn't that be a difference in musical technique? I also disagree that modern music isn't structured. If that's true you have to wonder why people bother making song maps. There are plenty of artists whose songs are a journey so I don't think that's really a fair thing to say. Maybe the journey isn't as complex in terms of theory but it makes up for that with complexity in other areas of music production. Again, apples and oranges.

Make sure you have time because this journey is 38 minutes and 49 seconds:
Klaus Schulze - Echoes Of Time

 

Thanks.

 

Todays music have structure, abba and all variants.Its a map that you cut, copy, paste, etc. Structure for me is something like a good story, but almost every good song brake the rules.
What I do no like is so many bass, with no variations and a cerrebral work of develop something, music turn in bricks that you build something, if fact is a static structure in hard way, are these robot times?
Erudit musicians do not improvise a lot, I always advice them, its one of the best things in music, everyone must jam.
Good composers improvise a lot, and the wise learn from foreing styles.
Yes production was a thing that mortals cant do (especially in third world).
When I started to work with midi (at the 80s) the important thing was the right notes, I done a lot of vocals direct to k7.
Then came internet and audio DEEP productions. At the music university they usually do not care/understand but is so much important.
As a brother of piano hero times (they are over for my sadness) you know that what we talk is not popular?
Klaus and so many others do achieve the masses. Klaus wil no appears in the next mexican soup opera right? There are so many good people that we will never se in Youtube...
When I talk about todays music it means dance, pop and rap.
The theory is not complex, but usually not apreciated with, people do without knowing. There a mith in pop culture that talent is not working hard... Mozart is not mortal right?
Thanks, loving Echoes of time
Sorry about my english, I think that we agree more than you realize

 

Yeah, I think I know what you mean. That was actually my biggest complaint when I started music production. I looked at a lot of today's music and thought that it was very blocky for lack of a better word. I just didn't really understand it with any depth at the time but I knew there was something about it that I didn't like. That is partly why I began my study of classical music. I didn't want to just understand today's music but I also wanted to deeply understand the history and techniques through the ages. Music theory became more than just a means to an end. Honestly, I don't think piano times are dead. There may be less people driven to explore that kind of deep study and practice but I think there are plenty of people that still are into that. I for one very much appreciate a beautiful piano composition and hope to one day be able to write my own. I also enjoy hearing a symphony play an emotional piece with the natural reverberations of a lush hall. Concerning Mozart you have to also remember that Mozart was an exception as he was born with an inherent aptitude for musical genius. He was composing at age 5. For Beethoven this did not come as easily and he constantly would rewrite and rework his compositions. He really fought and put an inordinate amount of work into his genius. To me that made him somehow more human and I find his music imbued with the same quality. I'm glad you're enjoying Echoes Of Time. It was composed in 1975 and is from the deluxe 2CD entitled Timewind which I highly recommend. The other songs are also very lengthy usually clocking in somewhere around 30 minutes a song. Finally, please don't worry about your english. It's not everyone's native language and I understood you just fine. It's been a pleasure and I know that we agree. I was just interested in the conversation so I wanted to explore it further.

 

Do not wait to compose until you are good enought, start today, improvise, study, repair etc. The musical personality in me was solid only in ten years. The proble is that today we have so many choices, its insane learn everything.
Compose is political, what you aim, what you want to achieve, who will listen, finally its a habit.
Today I more fix my old toys than other thing, its a shame, but my health is more stable.
I am very happy with our chat, because studying 10-12 hours a day, seven day a week, no hollidays or vacations and than, after 10 years I became sick, and made me review a lot.
Both of us thing that a song must be the best part of us... and today djs are hero (Ive see only a few that are really good).
when I gone to yours klaus link I see about 5 people making comments, its a sadness.
I only see dance/rap libs, its so hard to see an ethnic (I like loops because I learn with them) or a good rock.
My next step is to buy a breath controller and a big ribbon controller, ipad is so tine (I still thinking what to buy).
This topic is about dance?
Hugs from Brazil!

 

To me a DJ simply performs with other peoples music while an artist actually composes his own. I personally appreciate what a good DJ can do but my aim with my music is beyond that. You are correct that there aren't very many who are good, especially these days. I'm also very upset when I see so few comments on videos such as Klaus Schulze's because honestly a lot of electronic musicians forget that he was one of the pioneers. The young people have amnesia these days because they worship the disposable but I can tell you that my music collection still has all that music that people have long since forgotten about. I try to remind others from time to time so they can broaden their horizons. We must make an effort to remember the best music of ages past because we came from this foundation and it is wrong to simply sweep it away. It is a well of culture that I will freely drink from until the day I die. With my own music I attempt to create something that will add something special to music not just imitate what is already out there. Hopefully with enough study and practice I will succeed in this endeavor. I am interested in producing almost all genres not just what is fashionable today. I actually have an iPad and use it for ideas when I am on the road. Anyway though we got into other areas besides dance that's okay because the conversation has been very interesting and I appreciated it. Maybe some others did as well. All the best to you ovalf.

 

Perhaps linking to a download version rather than the DVD version would help?

Indeed, it would be impossible to cover a subject as complex as counterpoint in any great detail over a period of just five hours. However, the purpose of the tutorial is not to provide an in-depth examination of its theory but to introduce those new to music theory to its basic principles. The premise of the tutorial is to introduce the viewer to species counterpoint and show how it can be employed to create a number of independent melodies that all remain harmonious with one another. I know from experience that many struggle composing a melody from a bass line (and vice versa) and this tutorial shows some of the ways this can be approached.

In my opinion, far too many “producers” are ignoring music theory because it appears overtly complex or they feel they don’t need to know it and EDM as a genre is suffering as a result. By teaching basic counterpoint I’m hoping it will arm producers with a little more confidence to experiment and push forward. By offering the first rung of the ladder, I would hope viewers would then be willing to investigate it further through books.

B.t.w I'm always out of stock because we're a very small company and can only order small runs.

Couldn’t you buy it? Or have we reached a stage that such a request is now met with utter contempt and disgust. I refuse to believe we have degraded into a society so dependent on state benefits and government hand outs that we now come to expect everything for gratis.

I’m not about to lecture about warez here because I’m not an idiot. I know the site this board is a part of and I know some of the members who have shared our tutorials are on here too (Kyle from Ohio, Jonathan from Washington, Jonathan from Colorado, Sandro from Croatia etc - watermarking is present and works very well) but sharing our hard work does affect our sales and it does impact us. I am well aware that you cannot consider every download as a potential sale and that it does introduce your work to a wider audience but it does come at a hefty price that you don't get to see.

Perhaps I’m appealing to a sense of better nature that is now hopelessly lost but I would ask that if you want to see it, support us and buy the damn thing. We're not some huge multi-national faceless company with thousands of employees and its not a massively expensive product. We need your support, not your infringement.

 

Jaws dropping comment! @dancemusicproduction, I´m glad to see you on this forum ;)

...Much lesser keen on this pseudo-sociological intake for explaining what doesn´t directly relate with flaws and strengths of the welfare society.(the correlation works a bit as an ugly sale page)
But who cares, after decades of coercive advertising, the sale page could take any possible odd and Mephistophelian form.

 

Well you're good at making tutorials, no doubt about that, but at politics... you sxxk. So I suggest you stick with what you're good at.
Even if some folks ask in a stupid way in the wrong place (this forum doesn't supply warez !), you can't erase fools from the surface of the earth, so you should learn to deal with them, especially if you intend to make a living in the business world.

About your income concern, you're aware that internet is the kind of place where you can efficiently promote your company, but it comes with a downside as well. And because you're using it, prepare to be used. Now, if you want to entirely avoid piracy, try the door-to-door method.
I'm also giving the same advice to every companies whining about piracy, smalls to bigs.

Don't get me wrong, I do get your position and I know you're not Sony/Universal (yet... ^ ^) but you have to face the reality.

 

Rick if this is you then let me start by saying it's really an honor. I bought your book the Dance Music Manual 2nd Edition and I found it an extremely helpful resource when I was getting started in music production. I honestly really respect what you do and I can understand your frustration at seeing your hard work uploaded to a site for free. You should know however that there are plenty of members of this site that purchase their media so don't assume that this is not the case. This is primarily a site dedicated to music production and general chat. Those that do download your work elsewhere most likely wouldn't have the funds to purchase it anyway so does it really make a difference to you if they make a copy? After all it's not like that act somehow decreases the value of your product in any way. If there is a movement towards file-sharing one of the causes is that people have felt used and abused by the recording, movie, publishing and software industries for decades. Somehow it was never an issue when for all these years people shelled out $20 for a tape or CD with 2 good songs, when they bought overpriced books or when purchasing VHS tapes for a small video store cost $100 a copy. If you wanted another copy of that CD for your car in mp3 format you were required to buy it all over again which I think we can both agree is beyond unfair. With the advent of the internet this all changed and shifted the power back into the hands of the people as technology is bound to do. Even now an album from iTunes in a lower quality mp3 format costs about the same as it did when you were getting a physical copy in a high quality format and it's still the same crappy tracks with 2 good songs if you're lucky. The industry just got used to selling us crap at inordinate prices for so long that people have really had it. Also I'm sure we can both agree that the economy definitely isn't helping the situation. I was a little put off by your commentary on society's dependence on the welfare state and I think it was off-topic, rather short-sighted and unfair. For some reason nobody ever brings up the fact that the United States spends more on the military than every other country…combined. Somehow this is deemed as acceptable but when some of that money is used to give people a helping hand suddenly people seem to really have a problem. I'd rather spend money helping someone out than support the unchecked growth of the military-industrial complex that will one day be our demise. Also not everyone on welfare is involved in file-sharing and downloading your stuff for free so I think it's more of a stereotype than anything else. There are plenty of honest, hard-working folks on welfare who for one reason or other don't make the amount of money needed to survive. With the average wages and cost of living these days it's really no surprise to me. This part of my response was off topic but I wanted to reply to your commentary. However, I do understand that you are not a huge corporation and are in a sense collateral damage. Luckily your problems may soon disappear along with our freedoms as the United States government clutches its citizens and the rest of the world in its caustic grip. Already there have been ridiculous court cases in which file-sharers have had to pay inordinate sums of money based on the most ludicrous of calculations. Web sites are getting shut down without due process every day and you can be sure that the US is influencing copyright policy (bullying other countries into adopting their stance) the world over. Let's not forget CISPA which just sailed through the House on a 288-127 vote. Once this legislation is introduced I'm sure that file-sharing will take a big hit. However, you may find that its demise will not bring you the extra sales that you think it will. The truth is that copyright needs reform and maybe file-sharing is a way to ensure that this happens. The industry resists this evolution at every turn (as it did with every new technology) and this just prolongs the battle. Constantly as soon as something is about to be released into the public domain suddenly they extend it for X amount of years or prices are kept inordinately high on products that are cheaper than ever to produce. I can't speak for everyone but I can tell you that as soon as I come up with some extra cash I would really be interested in buying some of your videos because I do think they have value and I would like to support you in what you do. You should also know that the file-sharing community actually encourages people to support small developers more than you might think.

My advice to you in general is the advice I would give any of the aforementioned industries: find a way to package value into your legitimate product that warez can't compete with. That could be an experience or something that can't be had from a download. I'm not going to tell you ways to accomplish this as that is for you to decide but companies are successfully doing it every day. There have also been plenty of commissioned reports that are indicating that file-sharing greatly benefits sales. This can be seen clearly by Hollywood's record-breaking earnings this year and considering the crap that they've been putting out this is no small miracle. I would think for a small company there would be an even greater impact as you must have gotten a ton of publicity that would have cost you an arm and a leg to procure. Dance Music Production is a household name in the dance music community and I would hope that wouldn't be seen as completely worthless to you. It always seems that companies don't seem to have a problem with file-sharing when it is giving them the best publicity that money can buy for free but as soon as that company gains some fame suddenly out come the calculators to crunch the numbers of just how many sales they could be losing. In my opinion this just doesn't seem fair. Personally I can tell you that I talk about your products all the time and whether you want to believe me or not I give out your website where legitimate copies can be purchased. Maybe some of your sales have even been a direct result of this effort on my part and I really hope that this is the case. I sincerely hope that this doesn't just come off as me trying to brush you off or as justification for file-sharing because I could just as easily not have spent the amount of time I did in reaching out to you. Believe you me Rick...it's a bitch to write one of these essays.
I just wanted to perhaps make you understand that some of us do support you and to give you a glimpse into how a file-sharer might feel about the current copyright landscape. You should know that I have been on both sides of the fence so more understanding of your dilemma I could not be. I would also like to apologize about complaining that your releases are always out of stock. I have to admit I feel like an ass now that I know that it is because you are a very small company and can only order small runs. Maybe I should have been a little more thoughtful and considerate before I opened my mouth. Anyway I just want to close by wishing you the best in all your endeavors.

On a side note If you were to release a video on Industrial music production techniques you would not only be the first person that I am aware of that has been involved in such an endeavor but honestly I would buy it in a second and if it were a double or triple CD I would pay a good amount of money for it. I understand though that this is a niche genre and maybe you don't think you could recoup your investment by pursuing such an avenue. I'm just offering the idea in case it might be something you would be interested in exploring. I would also be interested in sound design (not basic sculpting) so maybe you could keep this in mind for future releases. On another note would you ever consider a subscription based streaming arrangement (such as monthly or yearly unlimited access) as you amass more releases? I would consider something like that if it were reasonably priced. Maybe this could be another area that might possibly help you build your business.

With much respect,
Catalyst

 

Thank you for the replies and thank you Catalyst for buying the DMM and for recommending us, I sincerely value your support.

I apologize if I came across to the forum as accusing everyone as file sharing, copyright infringers because that wasn’t my intention at all. I haven’t joined this forum to start a flame war and some of my comments I suppose were born of just sheer frustration. Witnessing people openly asking for someone to share something I’ve worked hard to produce is such an incredibly infuriating experience.

I do understand that many wouldn’t purchase the tutorials if they couldn’t grab them for free but I don’t believe this applies to all and there will be some who grab them simply because its saves them a few dollars/pounds. I’m not crunching numbers here to become a millionaire or build some kind of empire. I have no plans for DMP to take over the world but it does become increasingly difficult to feel motivated when “downloads” can be four times greater than actual sales. I suppose my concern is that as more tutorials are shared, people are less likely to purchase and just wait for it to appear on a site somewhere. As I mentioned before, I know I can’t stop infringement but I’m hoping that people will support us rather than just infringe.

Unfortunately, my post isn't as long as yours Catalyst but thank you for the essay Its certainly provided food for thought. We are currently looking into employing a subscription-based service that will work alongside the Academy and we’re currently developing a tutorial on sound design. As for a tutorial on industrial, I’ll add it to our list.

 

Trust me Rick I totally understand where you're coming from and I empathize with your plight. You saw that I stepped in to handle that request as we don't allow warez on these forums. With a question like that you're just as likely to be greeted with an: "if you want it so bad why don't you just buy it?" from one of our other members. I'm really glad that you've been looking at a subscription based service. Maybe this could provide you the extra revenue to help you build your business. It's something I will consider in the future as I am certainly in the market for something like that. Also if you ever decide to do that Industrial video (if you do please let it be a 2CD or 3CD) I myself will promote it on various genre specific forums that I am a member of in an effort to drum up extra awareness of the release. I think you bring something to the table that a lot of other tutorial sites currently don't and once you start offering subscriptions it will open avenues. You've certainly got a lot of experience under your belt and I really envy you for that. Honestly, I think that you've worked hard, deserve to be successful and I sincerely hope that your business will continue to grow and prosper. Anyway all the best to you and the other people you work with at Dance Music Production. :dancing: