This is very helpful, do you know any really accurate VU meters I can look into? And I’ve always been curious, why is it so common for people to say that keeping it at 0dBVU is such a valuable resource? Is it just a really solid middle ground? I’m still confused on the idea of dB vs dBVU vs DbFs vs RMS. Does tracking everything with a VU meter bring a lot of those problems out of the way? Thank you!

ank

 

The Klanghelm meter is a very good plugin for metering.

I personally would not take vu metering anymore because of some technical reasons.
An PPM after the DIN (DIN IEC 60268-10 Type I) is way more accurate but this is something that has to be discussed further more when we're talking about software.

But the Klanghelm one is definetely very good.

 

Last edited: Mar 30, 2019

You can also use this
https://www.tb-software.com/TBProAudio/mvmeter2.html
it also has same nice theme options (just scroll down a bit)
or these
http://www.vst4free.com/free_vst.php?id=1216
and for mono
http://www.vst4free.com/free_vst.php?plugin=MonoChannel&id=1215

But as Lieglein correctly said, it ain't necessary.

 

"dB" alone doesn't mean anything,because "dB" have to be related to a scale,like VU,PPM,FS,SPL,etc..
VU meters are usefull for further analog processing,e.g analog compressors or plugins emulations.Your (synth) plugins sound at their best around 0dBVU too.
0 dBVU= -18dBFS (for a sine wave at 1KHz,after 300ms precisely).If you go higher than 0 dBVU it's not a big problem,your plugins are just more saturated.
VU meters give you some sense of "loudness".
0 dBFS (Full scale) is the max value you can reach,it's the 0dB on your DAW,on digital devices.You can't go higher than this value or you get nasty digital clipping.

But VU meter are not always accurate,especially for sounds with sharp transients,like drums(because it reacts slowly,300ms,remember).Example,a hihat sound can show you 0 dBVU but you are at +0.5 dBFS.So you need to have a look on the VU meter and also on your Full Scale meter.Like the others members told you,the Klanghelm VU meter is very nice,it's precise and it shows you VU and FS values at the same time.
Also VU meters react differently according to the frequency content of your tracks: hihats or Ride cymbals or Pad sounds,which have a lot of high frequencies will hit a VU meter less harder than Bass sounds,which have a lot of low frequencies.
So you need to learn VU meters,don't try to hit absolutly 0 dBVU when you have a Pad sound,you will be probably below.On the other hand don't be aware to go higher than 0 dbVU with Bass sounds,you will be easily above;you can go untill +3 or +5 dBVU.But never above 0 dBFS !

To get correct balance,begin with the fader of your bass track at 0 on your DAW's console when your bass is around 0dbVU.Adjust all your different others tracks accordingly.

Mixing with VU meter on every track will help you a lot to get correct balance between your different levels of your tracks.

But don't use a VU meter on your master track,on your master stay around -6 dBFS.


And something that could help you to get the appropriate levels,calibrate the levels of your speakers!
Try this,very useful:

And mix at around 80dB SPL.Find an appropriate level with your monitoring controller and notice the position of your knob(or fader!),and try to mix your different songs at this same level.


If you do all these steps,your tracks will be naturally at the good levels.

 

Last edited: Mar 31, 2019

do you guys do prefader gain staging to lets say -18dB ? I heard in that range digital stuff works best

 

Read the third Post.

I'll never understand this.

 

Nothing related to my question written here. There is a difference between pre- and postfader gain ya know.

 

Correct.

What is digital "stuff"?

If you mean the input section of your (emulated) plugins or your (hardware) components, then you have to read the manual to know what works best, or at least to know what is recommended there. And I have said that this has nothing to do what is defined under gain staging.

 

Last edited: Mar 31, 2019

I mix with VU meters (of course it's the level pre fader),so pre fader stay around 0 dBVU.But VU meters are calibrated 0 dBVU = -18dBFS for a sine wave at 1KHz after 300ms,that doesn't mean all your different instruments at 0 dBVU are at -18 dBFS !

And if you work with (external) analog devices you have to work with VU meters.

Try it yourself!

 

Why?

 

Because they work best at 0 dBVU.

 

What does "they work best" mean? In which way?

 

Sorry, Blue, but some things you said are (partly) wrong in these points:

• '0 dBVU= -18dBFS' is wrong, there is no mathematical equation for this. It's simply a question of calibration and this can be choosen freely by any hard- or software developer. The AES/EBU agreed on this calibration, but the SPMTE choose 0VU = -24dBFS and God knows what the South Americans, Africans, Asians or Australians choose. They all can choose one of these calibrations, but they don't have to. 0VU can be -36dBFS, or -12dBFS aswell, for example.
  
• 'VU meters give you some sense of "loudness"' these are some big inverted commas. VU meters measure the rms level, which does not equal loudness.
  
• '0 dBFS is the max value you can reach,..You can't go higher than this value or you get nasty digital clipping.' Nope, that's neither true. With 32 or even 64 bitFP you can go as high as you want without clipping any channel, even in the master.
• 'But VU meter are not always accurate' if you call +/- 0.x dB rms not accurate, then you're right.
• 'Also VU meters react differently according to the frequency content of your tracks' err, no. Try it yourself (I did). Adjust the level of a drum loop, pink noise, a sine wave at 100Hz or a sine wave at 1000Hz to 0VU (calibrated to -18dBFS) and they all will end up with an rms of -21dBFS (+/- 0.xdB).
  And here is why: A sine wave with -18dBFS peak has an rms value of -21dBFS (simple math) and since VU meters do not measure peaks but rms level every signal with an rms of -21dBFS will be shown as 0VU (for this calibration).
• 'Mixing with VU meter on every track will help you a lot to get correct balance between your different levels of your tracks' The balance between the different channel's levels? What balance? Who needs every channel to have the same rms, even in the channels input, let alone the output? (serious question)
• 'on your master stay around -6 dBFS' With 16bit (fixed point, typically aka integer) you shouldn't go higher than 0dBFS, so -1dBFS (TP) would be save, with 32, or 64bitFP this isn't true at all because you can go to +10dBFS or even higher, again, without clipping it.
  
• 'mix at around 80dB SPL' if you want to ruin your hearing, yes, you should do this. If not, mix mostly at a lower level and sometimes even down to the hearing threshold, your ears will thank you and it'll give you some additional information about your track's balance.

Really, no offense mate, I just wanted to make these points clear.

At OP, if you find this too off-topic, I can put it in a spoiler.

 

Thank you for making this clear.

Btw this misunderstanding probably comes from the Wikipedia article about vu meters:

"Frequency response
The level specification is meant at 1000 Hz. The reading should not depart from the reading at 1000 Hz by more than 0.2 dB from 35 Hz to 10 kHz or more than 0.5 dB between 25 Hz and 16 kHz."

But this is just a norm for manufacturers of hardware vu meters because of the behaviors of some electrotechnical components. This has nothing to do with the principles.

 

Last edited: Apr 1, 2019

Thank you so much man! You´re like a dictionary when it comes to sound design, and mixing, and this site would not be complete if it were not for gurus like you. I was going to ask, and maybe this is not the sub forum to request on, but could you DM me some possible individuals you may know that you think would be good to mix this? The guy who I originally was going to send this to upped his prices, and I can not afford it right now...plus I just want to be very careful with whom I send this to, and I feel asking someone who knows a lot more then myself would be the right one to approach. Thanks again!

 

Drhwi

 

Last edited by a moderator: Apr 1, 2019

This seems to be within the realms of what I was getting it, no need to spoiler.

 

I think he meant that he has them calibrated to :

 

Yes they do.Since they show you (as you said) the RMS value(that's what I meant by some sense of loudness=not exactly the loudness) they help you to get a correct balance,for me it sounds "better" when all my different tracks are around 0 dBVU than all to 0 dBFS.
You need some "marker",or "scale",i find logic to mix with average levels (of course you need to check your peak meter too) rather than peak levels only.If all your tracks have the same average levels your different tracks are easier to mix.Of course that doesn't mean it's impossible to mix your different tracks hitting each the 0 dBFS.Or +5dBFS as you said!(Though I find idiot to advise somebody to never go higher than 0 dBFS)(and yeah I know the thing with Floating point DAWs)

I wasn't talking about bits,I was talking to stay around -6 dBFS on the master.Yeah I find that not a bad advice.I don't think I'm the only one saying that.

My friend...What is your point here?All what I said is bullshit??..Analog modeled plugins are all (at least all I know) calibrated 0 dBVU= -18 dBFS,like the VU meters I've tried.

Yes you have to mix around 80 dBSPL.Have you ever tried to measure yourself how loud are your monitors when mixing?You will see that you naturally "hear" or "mix" at around 80 dBSPL in C weighted slow response,normally.

When calibrating your speakers at 80 dBSPL with a pinknoise it seems very hard(and you calibrate ONE speaker at 80 dBSPL each time),but when mixing with your 2 speakers (it's better lol!) 80 dBSPL is not very hot.

 

Yeah, you can do this, but don't have to. I've never seen any guitarist running his git through a Marshall and using a VU meter and you don't need one to record it...