Whenever I limit the track it seems the *depth* like instrument one being behind instrument two gets ruined. I don't push limiter too hard to ruin the dynamics, I just make it loud enough so it is at its maximum level. Any recommendations?

Ex1 ( Without limiter )

Ex2 ( With limiter )

Notice how the chords in the Ex2 have lost the depth they had compared to Ex1 because of limiter.

 

Last edited: Sep 14, 2017

check your low end,eats most of your headroom for a start.

 

How is that related to ruining the depth in the track? I don't want to increase loudness, I am asking how to avoid ruining the sense of depth in track when I do limiting.

 

If the depth gets ruined, then you ARE pushing it too hard
Show us a before/after, maybe people can help more that way?

 

what do you do?
what are you using?
What do you want to acomplish?

Be Specific ;)

 

Do whatever you want to do but it can quickly fuck up your dynamic range since its all about details, just slapping a limiter on a mixbus....i would never use it.
I go from track to track, group to group, buss to buss, rather than just push it all up. Im sure your mastering engineer is gonna love the fact that your levels are going trough the roof.

 

I added the example to the first post of thread.

 

probably the EQ and levels of the different tracks are screwing it up

and on a sidenote: your rhythm is a bit of as well i think

 

If you compress that synth you will loose the volume change that you are calling depth.
That is literally what a compressor does or a limiter does.

You can not add a processor that is intended to make the entire audio stream sound have less dynamic range and then lament the loss of an amplitude modulated synth part.

Either mix that part below the threshold of your processor or get rid of you processors. Your gain staging and overall levels are probably a bit on hot side as well. You don't need mix so hot, you DAW is not a 1978 Trident there is nothing to be gained by overloading the channels especially if you want to end up with a DR of 5 when you are done.

 

Hi MaXe,

I just downloaded your two files and instead of using a limiter ('cause that's not what it's meant for) I normalized both tracks to -0,3dB. Try it yourself, play them randomly and then tell me about the loss of depth again. You will hardly hear one.

Never mix up sound and loudness!!!

 

Last edited: Sep 14, 2017

THAT HAPPENS TO ALL OF US JUST LIKE YOU.

there is a secret to overcome this challenge.
what we can do to overcome this, is to think in terms of tiny adjustments. each plugin or piece of gear does a tiny bit almost where you cannot hear it, but then you have to have more plugins or units , each one does a little and the sound is gradually being adjusted from the place of the tiny aspects of the sound instead of trying to get a result with one ;plugin or unit.

for example in your first audio track when I ask myself what needs to be done to get it finished i picture around 25 or more steps, instead of thinking
"only one more thing left, put it through a limiter and slam the limiter."
think in terms tiny adjustments, that actually adjust the tiny aspects of the sound, NOT the larger aspects of the sound.

"I don't push limiter too hard to ruin the dynamics, I just make it loud enough so it is at its maximum level."

this is not true , you had the first track you put a limiter on it , then adjusted it in a way where it ruined the depth. this by definition is "pushing the limiter too hard" or "ruining the dynamics"

you did those exact things, but NOT because you are an asshole or bad person, it would happen to anyone that did exactly what you did when you did it.
the reason is, starting from your first track it needs at least 25 more steps until completion with full dynamics intact full depth yet loud enough and clear present full and rich.

 

I didn't get the point. What do you mean by "Never mix up sound and loudness"? What are you referring to by using the term "loudness" and "sound"? Could you please elaborate?

So you're saying that there is no difference between two files and the depth is not ruined by increasing the level?!
Here there is no difference between Normalizing or using a limiter since I am not pushing limiter to hard to increase perceived loudness, instead what I am increasing is simply loudness.

How exactly the EQ of track screws the depth over here? If the usage of limiter is after the mixing process (final stage) then how should one be prepared for such problems?

Here I am not pushing the limiter too hard, I am simply increasing the volume not the perceived loudness but still the depth is kind of ruined and I feel the color of the sound has changed. How should one predict such phenomena in mixing stage before doing limiting in the mastering stage?

 

Hi Maxe,

I just did a very quick master preview for you. I just raised the RMS by ~ 5dB using a combination of compressor and limiter. Do you think/hear that there is a great loss of depth??

 

What sort of tiny adjustments should I do to increase the loudness? I thought I should use the limiter in the final stage to increase loudness.
In the example above, it is just a rough mix ( For educational purposes ) and I wanted to increase the loudness and check out the depth.
From the tutorials I have seen on Youtube, like checking out the iZotope tuts, they use the limiter, and not just iZotope, all other tutorials available everybody uses limiter to increase the volume at the final stage.
In addition, I didn't use hell bunch of plugins on each track since I felt I didn't need that much of process :|
Still the question remains - How to increase loudness in the final stage without coloring the sound and losing depth like so?!

 

Here it sounds the depth is saved somehow but still some depth is lost. But here as you say you have used a compressor before limiter in the chain. Why? my goal was to increase loudness and not lose depth. Is there any reason to use a compressor to do so?

 

hello my friend,

"What sort of tiny adjustments should I do to increase the loudness?"

what you can do is revert back to where you have individual tracks again, then put analog modeling plugins on of tube preamp, tape machine, transistor recording consoles, etc, and then put a few on where they dont sound like changing the sound hardly at all, but when you add them up it changing and rounding off the transients and making the sound fat and rich, do this for each instrument.
next when you do get to where you think you might want to use limiting.
put on a limiter, adjust your threshold to where it only effects -1..5 db of your audio, then put a different limiter on and have the threshold effect -1 db of your sound and another one where it is only effecting half a db of transients , do you get me? those plugins each do a tiny bit but when you add up what the whole chain does it is gradually shaping your sound in a way that is not destructive at all.

"n addition, I didn't use hell bunch of plugins on each track since I felt I didn't need that much of process :|"

it is okay, our computers can handle the extra plugins nowadays so we use more plugins so that each one does less destruction, and we can shape our sound more precise, think of it kinda like your painting something you have one large brush that gets paint all over vs a tiny brush that is more precise but you have to dip it in the paint and do more brush strokes to finish it, or in other words , dealing with the detail. thinking in terms of the tiny aspects of your sound ( that is what gets ruined with loss of depth your tiny aspects fine grain detail is getting ruined by too much from one single plugin or audio unit or piece of gear slammed too hard.
think of it is each plugin stays invisible , and does a tiny bit on the tiny part of your sound, the fine grain detail of your sound.
something to help understand this .
take your home stereo system inside of it the sound is passing through 100o steps each doing a little by the final end where it comes out your speakers, each does tiny change passes on to next one and in the end it was 1000 steps ( passing through individual components resistors capacitors transformers etc. all those steps of change add up together of what we think of as "home stereo" by the time sound gets to speakers and your ears.

 

Last edited: Sep 14, 2017

Of course there's difference between sound and loudness!!! Play a song very very low and then very very loud. The sound will change. First louder music sounds better to us, that's why you raise the volume if you hear a song you like. Second see Fletcher Munson Curve! We hear the frequencies different according to dBSPL.

Depth is ruined by increasing the level?? If you raise your file from ~ -5dBFS to ~0dbFS absolutely nothing will happen to the depth!! How could it?

And yes. I noticed you weren't pushing the limiter hard, that's why there is no difference in your two tracks.

Have you tried normalizing both files and listen to them? I guess not.

 

I've listened to both tracks on tiny MacBook Pro speakers at about half volume and they sound about the same to me, with the limited version sounding a little bit louder and more present. Several suggestions:

1) it's an electronic music track, with synth and drum machine sounds. Are you using compression on any of these audio tracks, assuming you're mixing audio tracks and not just VIs? Try removing any compressors and just mixing those tracks a little hotter. Any compression you're using is going to be magnified ten-fold once you push your mix through a limiter. In theory, synths and drum machines don't require compression, unless you're trying to achieve a certain effect. You can correct dynamic issues in your MIDI editor, though it doesn't sound to me like you even have any.

2) if you're mixing with recorded audio tracks and not VIs, make sure those recorded audio tracks are peaking no higher than -6 dB. If you recorded them too hot, try normalizing the audio to -6 dB.

3) if you're mixing with VIs, make sure your VI output is no higher than -6 dB. Turn off your automation, push that VI's channel fader to 0 dB and watch the meter (or insert a meter plug, if your DAW doesn't have this function). If your VI is outputting any higher than -6 dB, turn the VI's (not the channel fader's) volume down until the meter shows you're not peaking higher than -6 dB.

4) Once you've done all that, you'll now notice that your mix is -6 dB lower overall. You can compensate by pushing your faders (or increasing the overall volume on your track automation) up by 6 dB. You should still have plenty of headroom.

 

A similar problem here for my recorded mics, the meters show fully loud but the volume sound isn't that much loud and I need boosting further

 

And concerning the difference between compressor and limiter: Apply each one separately on your stereo mix, render it, reload it, adjust the peak level and compare it. You will hear (I hope) and see a difference.

The premaster was just to show you that you don't have to ruin the depth by mastering a track. And don't forget I did it within minutes.