Until now it wasn't. Now it IS. You're welcome.

 

No need to apologize, it goes fast and moves in pages.

 

And by that I mean, now you HAVE to prove (rather promote, convince us) that we HAVE to do what you propose we do on page 1;
Hope I'm clear.

 

Me too! Best post so far. Wish the thread would have closed with this.

 

Well maybe if you explain you will enlightened me.

 

And now I know you ARE misunderstanding things. Maybe you at least could acknowledge the possibilty that what you are objecting to is a misunderstanding. If you (both) could talk WITH each other more than over each other i am pretty sure the basic misunderstanding would resolve itself sooner.

 

I'm just leveling with him. I really think I've understood, and we just disagree on the conclusion each needs to render himself to regarding the fact that REALITY IS.
Because for the rest, the fact that reality is what it is, we couldn't agree more. What do we do with that.

 

TALMI


im going to show you that you and everyone here agrees with the proposition ready?

Talmi, picture a situation there is another person that knows nothing at all about you except for your name. is it possible that in their thoughts they can formulate a concept of you that completely matches the real actual you that exists 100 percent? no.( their thought is fiction compared to the you that exist or the you in REALITY)reality just means here is the actual you

what WOULD they need to improve this concept of you that is in their mind they think is representing you? they need information about the actual you that exists, if you told them things or if they learned accurate things ( this is demonstrable evidence)
now, as they continue to learn more and more accurate things about you that concept of you in their head gradually gets more accurate , BUT if they learned everything about you ( i dont know how they could learn that much) THEIR concept is always a representation of you that is NOT a full match. BUT look at the difference between the version of their concept of you which has zero demonstrable evidence, and the version that has a fairly decent amount or even a few things.
when we compared two concepts of you that they have one with zero facts about you another with a few , now what that person tried to do WITH the concept of you makes a dramatic difference! say they formulating a argument to you but ts all positions you do not hold? compared to they got one of your positions right? This is ALL my proposition deals with, that is what the terms (reality) and ( fiction) mean and what ( demonstrable evidence) means.









alternate version



GOD, souls and afterlives, picture a situation there is a person that knows nothing at all about you except for your name. is it possible that in their thoughts they can formulate a concept of you that completely matches the real actual you that exists 100 percent? no.( their thought is fiction compared to the you that exist or the you in REALITY)reality just means here is he actual god souls afterlives
what WOULD they need to improve this concept of you that is in their mind they think is representing you? they need information about the actual you that exists, if you told them things or if they learned accurate things ( this is demonstrable evidence)
now, as they continue to learn more and more accurate things about you that concept of you in their head gradually gets more accurate , BUT if they learned everything about you ( i dont know how they could learn that much) THEIR concept is always a representation of you that is NOT a full match. BUT look at the difference between the version of their concept of you which has zero demonstrable evidence, and the version that has a fairly decent amount or even a few things.
when we compared two concepts of you that they have one with zero facts about you another with a few , now what that person tried to do WITH the concept of you makes a dramatic difference! say they formulating a argument to you but ts all positions you do not hold? compared to they got one of your positions right? This is ALL my proposition deals with, that is what the terms (reality) and ( fiction) mean and what ( demonstrable evidence) means.

 

Last edited: Apr 24, 2017

hahaha

 

Why would anyone want to know me in this way ? I don't want them to. I like that they know a representation of me. A red Tux.
I like that we can have all different representations of things. Why do we have to have the best representation (the closest to what it really is, as unperfect as it is) of all things ?
It's important for medicine and for nuclear research, but why for all things ? Why do you want that , I'm actually very curious about that.

 

You are not having an honest respectful conversation anymore. What I did was reasonable induction. What you are doing is straw manning. It is a difference.

Anyways.. I am starting to fell it is to exhausting to have a discussion with you if you are going to act with aversion instaead of approaching things with a more respectful attitude. And then i mean respect as in to the conversation not to me personally.

 

I absolutely don't understand why you would write that.
I couldn't be more honest on the fact that I'm having a conversation that I acyually enjoy, with no bad thought of any form.
this is actually a fascinating conversation and reflection.
Wittgenstein back then already brought me there. I didn't get to where MJM2017 is, in terms of conclusion, I wish to understand why he is where he is.
if you want me out of the talk Farao, and mistrust my intentions, I will leave the thread, no problem, just tell me if it's the case.

 

I absolutely do not want you out of the discussion. I am disqualifing myself on the basis that I am used to conversations where people actually try to do what is asked of them - within reason of course. I do not think you are acting in such a way right now. No hard feelings at all. Really.

 

do I really have to list out why you would want people to think of you as you are ?

think of your friends your family and people you interact with, if every interaction with you was based on their idea that you are someone else. i dont think you are being very honest at this point to ask something like that, because i THINK of you as intelligent.
how many example would I have to give you? say you landlord has a concept of you that is of a crack dealer and pimp and based on that the way he talks to you interacts with you etc.
what if your best friend thought of you as a person you not, your wife or husband or girlfriend or boyfriend or mailman, guy at the checkout line.
it is not a hypothetical either, to the degree everyone thinks of you as a fiction, their actions the way they talk to you, all interactions and intent changes compared to the you that is actually there and the way you really are.
but it is not only thinking of people thinking of anything that is actual works this way to the degree we are wrong it impacts all things our behavior and interactions, intent.
at this point I dont know what else I could say.

 

Sweet.
I don't know if we can fall in agreement. But since I've been both fascinated by this line of thinking and yet unwilling to embrace it, feeling not quite necessarely up for the task, I'm very interested by the pov of people living by it.

 

Wouldn't the alternative possibly indicate that collectively we are one entity under a common illusion that mirrors reality on some level lol

 

No but wait. I don't mean why would people want to know me, like my formal identity, age, biographic trajectory,etc. That's natural. That's not knowing me. That's knowing my social construction. What defines me, beside date of birth, adress, genre, work or whatever ?

 

"
I like that we can have all different representations of things. Why do we have to have the best representation (the closest to what it really is, as unperfect as it is) of all things ?
It's important for medicine and for nuclear research, but why for all things ? Why do you want that , I'm actually very curious about that."




lets say your at a restaurant and the man making your food , thinks you have disgust for him and decide to sabotage your food.
lets say your girlfriend or lover creates and argument and accusation of you that you didnt say and would never do, it has destructive effect of relationship.
lets say you vising parents and they misplaced their medication, but only recognize that it is missing and they come up with that you stole it and are lying and they kick you out and think of you as a thief from now on.
lets say your landlord comes up with thoughts that you are selling crack from your hose for years straight and he decides he is going to go out of his way even dishonestly to come up with eviction notice.
lets say a police officer pulls you over and as you talk he thinks you being sarcastic and as you try to be polite he takes that as you are patronizing him , in his mind he decides he is fed up and will dishonestly fake a crime to put you in jail for the weekend to teach you a lesson.
lest say you are hanging out with a friend out somewhere with his car quite a distance away from home and his other friend comes over but you just met the new friend thinks something not quite right about you and comes up with excuses why everything you say to him is against him, you try to explain your not doing it and both team up on you to the point of physical fighting and leaving you beat up there.

to I have to come up with millions of examples that all happen in the world, how people dont differentiate between fiction and not regarding how they conceive a person to be? I can keep going if you want how many you want 100 or 1000 or 10,000 examples?

the example of how we think of a human being is no different than how we think of electromagnetism or anything at all, it is just that how we think of others effects more than success at building things etc, our interactions regular life relationships, mental illness or not, physical violence, crime etc.

 

Last edited: Apr 24, 2017

And yet you seem to actually HAVE misunderstood a couple of basic things.

There are some things in your argumentation that allude to this that makes me quite certain you are misreading things.

Like, for instance, when you say that you think the view he is saluting would mean that poetry and dreaming is not things that people should enjoy.

That is just one clear cut example of where you seem to have misunderstood a a basic premise. and why I asked suggested to maybe ask more questions rather that prematurely attack a view noone really holds.

 

Yup, more and more sure you are missing something. I would not be suprised for you to soon realize that you are questioning a view noone here actually holds.

You should start to see that the view you are trying to understand certainly acknowledge a broader view of what is real than you seem to think.