What is real and not? (aka ATHESIM vs THEISM) (CLOSED)

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by MMJ2017, Apr 17, 2017.

?

are you atheist or theist?

Poll closed Nov 17, 2017.
  1. theist

    30.8%
  2. atheist

    53.8%
  3. in between: for example: Taoism/buddhism (god-less religions)

    9.9%
  4. Both

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Divided by

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. "i don't know" + " i donm't know" + " idon't know" = God, souls, afterlife

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. I don't have the free will to answer this becuase i am a fictional charactor

    1.1%
  8. the universe is a video game created by an alien

    2.2%
  9. Vegan

    2.2%
  1. farao

    farao Rock Star

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    Thank you! : ) Same goes for you! : )

    I agree with almost everything you said there. I only would like to add one thing. That fact that nothing in isolation can be said to be absolute truth does not mean that reality can't be described with extreme accuracy, especially within well defined propositions. Even though as you say it certainly is ok to be wrong in science, that does not mean the progress is not real. Something is true in the sense that it is repartable and verifiable. What works works. We can work together towards common goals this way.

    Belief is of course different and I suppose you agree about that? I do not really mind if someone belives in God. I think it is wrong, though, for that someone to actually act like their belief is actually true.
     
  2. Kloud

    Kloud Guest

    Fantastic post sums it all up well for me personally :yes:
    Important to maybe remember is that there is a constant, dynamic interchange between ourselves as a 'whole' and the 'real' world outside.
    As humans we are far from 'perfect' and our own selfish misplaced ideologies all to often shape the world around us also in some fashion.
    Look at what heavy industry is doing to the climate and coral reefs. Where do those selfish desires come from?
    Money and the fictional notion that it might make your life somehow more purposeful or the desire to create a 'real world' practise that could affect others in a better way? That's the important bit i guess and that's what some moral teachings are all about :dunno: Some call them control mechanisms but as stated above it's quite often arrogance or ignorance that perverts and sours those teachings.
    Isn't money symbolic and fictional?
    The future notion of more, more, more certainly is and what does that drive some humans to do?
    False teachings, hormones, neurotransmitters and a hugely complicated dynamic interchange that is not fully understood, never will be and constantly changing anyhow if one subscribes to the theory of evolution.
    The concept of nociception and pain pathways and highly misunderstood in many ways. Some question the experience all together but the experience is very real for the individual involved.
    One can never fully understand another humans experience until you yourself are fully immersed in that experience which of course you can never be.
    So rather than question often it's better to show some appreciation of the experience rather than treat it with abject skepticism :yes: You as an individual can never fully understand that personal experience but you can show compassion.
    So our actions, forged by a combination of fiction/non-fiction shape the physical world around us also on many levels.
    Possibly also on many levels we do not fully comprehend or are yet able to fully visualise or conceptualise.
    This in turn can affect climate, real world principles and much more. It can work both ways So best notion is possibly work with what you can change in order that you can make a better existence for those around you if at all possible I guess- Peace :) :mates::bow:
     
  3. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    "The problem isn't deniying or not reality, but your wish (or illusion) to reduce reality to what is named, proved and measured."

    what do you mean by this?
    why do you think I wish to reduce reality to what is named?
    can you show this IS what i did?


    "because most people wont deny reality you would ,maybe, want them to not experience life beyond what has been proven (and not express things outside the scope of it, which would probably mean the end of hypothesis in science), in their experience of life.."


    I dont understand sir what you mean by this.



    "
    Your challenge, your real challenge is to convince people to have faith in you and in your choice to only name rightfully named concept and address only proven reality (the namable one), which is a subjective choice, a very strong choice of life and a very different one than being an atheist (as it's commonly defined, not the meaning you've arbitrarely chosen for it with your fiction-non fiction differenciation). And doing that without going above the godwin point and refering to Hitler would be a huge thing.
    BTW to me what you're trying to accomplish, as I wrote earlier, is to Convert. Not to reality. But to your take on it."



    very interesting , I never heard of this . so to you , having faith in mmj2017 = " a person that actually exists, differentiating between fiction and not inside of their thoughts? what is the faith part? what is the part that has something to do with me? what is my choice?

    do you think that when i am using words, reality that I mean something other than ( the way things actually work?) what allows you to have faith in that?
    do you think that when i say fiction that I mean something other than ( arrangement of words thought to have been the way things actually work, but is wrong?) what allows you to have faith in that?

    "You have every right to defend your objectivism."

    It is NOT that I have combed through philosophical concepts for years, and picked out objectivism , and said "perfect that is great value to hol" or " this is what to call my belief" no sir.

    my position regarding reality different than fantasy, or that reality exists independent form consciousness , is what human beings as a whole have learned about what reality is by demonstrable evidence. we test and probe reality to see what it is like with zero prior assumptions, ( you might say " of, your assuming you can test and probe it and get reliable answer! right?) NO we tested and probed it TO see if it WOULD be reliable and it was , we could have found out that every test yields different results and no electronics could ever be built and no modern medicine no engineering could be accomplished that we would forever be forced to live like cave men because reality constantly changes and there is no "way that things work"
    we could have tested and probed reality and found zero mechanisms for how a brain could create consciousness that the physical structure is impossible to do that, bu that is not what we found through millions of tests by millions of people through hundreds of lifetimes.why are you not takking this inot account?

    we could have began testing and probing reality to get an answer during the enlightenment and found, oh god exists here is a textbook on him like modern medicine or engineering or calculus or electromagnetism.who's fault is it that there are no millions of tests that show souls and afterlives and not one textbook laying out exactly how and why it works? who falut is it that we found ourselves sin THIS reality? a reality much different than say the type of reality in "supernatural" films where in the film claimed to be supernatural genre, people fly around or use magic like as evident as we know about thunderstorms and how grass grows in this one? whos fault is it?
    I want people to have faith in me because we all find ourselves in this world that works the way it actually does? when a murder happens they look for peolle that have bodies why is that? why dont they say on the news all the time( several disembodied un-embodied minds where floating around campus today teenagers where watching books fly of shelves apparently that demonstrate their existence through multiple verified scientific tests and the world will never be the same again back to you with the weather bob, (bob) well, we have these storms coming up in the east we believe is is the god of hurricanes called rhatiglio, yes tom he is very very angry back to you.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  4. Moonlight

    Moonlight Audiosexual

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    Nature is the 'Religion' I prefer
     
  5. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    TALMI

    "Words are unable to describe correctly reality fully, they are not perfect themselves. Every tools, methods used to name correctly reality are human constructed tools themselves, thus imperfect because built by entities who at some level always mislabel reality by not knwing it completely and correctly. We haven't named correctly reality entirely, the few pieces of reality we have correct names for, naming might be ajusted if language changes, etc, but still people will keep on adressing part of reality not yet adressed, at heart of the problem isn't reality itself but the fact that people always live and go beyond reality that is proven and named as they have to live in it. From the perspective that you indeed describe."




    this is my proposition as discussed on page 1.
     
  6. Talmi

    Talmi Audiosexual

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    Sure but can you show you didn't ?

    I don't understand what you don't understnd can you expand on that ?
    Those are questions you need to answer indeed.


    Nothing. As much nothing as when you have faith in the way you explain why others have belief. Why do you have faith in that ?
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  7. Talmi

    Talmi Audiosexual

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    I'm aware of it.
     
  8. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    "The problem isn't deniying or not reality, but your wish (or illusion) to reduce reality to what is named, proved and measured."

    what do you mean by this?
    why do you think I wish to reduce reality to what is named?
    can you show this IS what i did?


    "because most people wont deny reality you would ,maybe, want them to not experience life beyond what has been proven (and not express things outside the scope of it, which would probably mean the end of hypothesis in science), in their experience of life.."


    I dont understand sir what you mean by this.



    "
    Your challenge, your real challenge is to convince people to have faith in you and in your choice to only name rightfully named concept and address only proven reality (the namable one), which is a subjective choice, a very strong choice of life and a very different one than being an atheist (as it's commonly defined, not the meaning you've arbitrarely chosen for it with your fiction-non fiction differenciation). And doing that without going above the godwin point and refering to Hitler would be a huge thing.
    BTW to me what you're trying to accomplish, as I wrote earlier, is to Convert. Not to reality. But to your take on it."



    very interesting , I never heard of this . so to you , having faith in mmj2017 = " a person that actually exists, differentiating between fiction and not inside of their thoughts? what is the faith part? what is the part that has something to do with me? what is my choice?

    do you think that when i am using words, reality that I mean something other than ( the way things actually work?) what allows you to have faith in that?
    do you think that when i say fiction that I mean something other than ( arrangement of words thought to have been the way things actually work, but is wrong?) what allows you to have faith in that?

    "You have every right to defend your objectivism."

    It is NOT that I have combed through philosophical concepts for years, and picked out objectivism , and said "perfect that is great value to hol" or " this is what to call my belief" no sir.

    my position regarding reality different than fantasy, or that reality exists independent form consciousness , is what human beings as a whole have learned about what reality is by demonstrable evidence. we test and probe reality to see what it is like with zero prior assumptions, ( you might say " of, your assuming you can test and probe it and get reliable answer! right?) NO we tested and probed it TO see if it WOULD be reliable and it was , we could have found out that every test yields different results and no electronics could ever be built and no modern medicine no engineering could be accomplished that we would forever be forced to live like cave men because reality constantly changes and there is no "way that things work"
    we could have tested and probed reality and found zero mechanisms for how a brain could create consciousness that the physical structure is impossible to do that, bu that is not what we found through millions of tests by millions of people through hundreds of lifetimes.why are you not takking this inot account?

    we could have began testing and probing reality to get an answer during the enlightenment and found, oh god exists here is a textbook on him like modern medicine or engineering or calculus or electromagnetism.who's fault is it that there are no millions of tests that show souls and afterlives and not one textbook laying out exactly how and why it works? who falut is it that we found ourselves sin THIS reality? a reality much different than say the type of reality in "supernatural" films where in the film claimed to be supernatural genre, people fly around or use magic like as evident as we know about thunderstorms and how grass grows in this one? whos fault is it?
    I want people to have faith in me because we all find ourselves in this world that works the way it actually does? when a murder happens they look for peolle that have bodies why is that? why dont they say on the news all the time( several disembodied un-embodied minds where floating around campus today teenagers where watching books fly of shelves apparently that demonstrate their existence through multiple verified scientific tests and the world will never be the same again back to you with the weather bob, (bob) well, we have these storms coming up in the east we believe is is the god of hurricanes called rhatiglio, yes tom he is very very angry back to you.)
     
  9. farao

    farao Rock Star

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    Wait, here what?? If you say I am wrong please be so kind as to define exactly where I am wrong. It is not clear what you mean we disagree about. What does your "that's" refer to?

    Do you really, really think he means that there is no value in these things? And a more interesting question: Do you actually view poetry, naming things, dreams, artistic endeavors and such as non-scientific?

    Are you misrepresenting on purpose? Either that or I am quite certain that that you missing things being said/meant. I think you should ask more questions so that you are honestly representing the view of others. What you are doing here is called straw manning. It is not an honest way to have a discussion.

    Welcome back to/from reality : )

    I am pretty sure there is a lot of misunderstanding going on here. Maybe most importantly what the scientific scope is or ought to be. You clearly seem to think some things are out of the scientific scope? So I ask you, what do you mean is outside of the scientific scope?

    This might be a good place to at least start understanding each other.
     
  10. Talmi

    Talmi Audiosexual

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    Reality exists independant of consciousness. I didn't oppose to that Where did I ?
    That's very interesting. I have to agree again, reality IS real. I think everyone can agree. God hasen't been proven. Wow.
    So ? Do we stop living the way we want, by investing reality with meaning ?
    Everything you state is absolutely, beautifully true. Reallity IS, my brothers, halleluya !
    What you make of that and of the rest is your own concern, and it relies on your subjective choice to live by some principles.
    That's those principles that you need to defend and sell to people reading this topic.
    Good luck with that. What you offer isn't tasty.
     
  11. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    "The problem isn't deniying or not reality, but your wish (or illusion) to reduce reality to what is named, proved and measured."

    mmj2017
    what do you mean by this?
    why do you think I wish to reduce reality to what is named?
    can you show this IS what i did?

    TALMI
    Sure but can you show you didn't ?

    yes right now, I can demonstrably show that it is NOT my wish to reduce reality to what is named.


    MMJ2017 page 1

    ".....our thoughts are made of words and symbols which are virtual not real , so for any meaning to be there, we have to be talking about those symbols representing something and reality is what the words are supposed to represent....."

    If you cannot fathom it by this point the amount of clarification i have done on these 30 something pages, you will never find more clarity then that i explained it fully, detailed, i explained it simply at other times, if you fundamentally cannot or refuse to comprehend what is being expressed, and that you somehow do want it or need it, that is great Im giving you a gift with this. if you take it as something else dont do anything with it, mistake fiction for reality as much as you can. think you are a fictional character , love your family and fiends to the same degree you love a cartoon character on a cereal box, that is fine by me.
    but dont sit there and demonstrate you agree with me and it effects your life down to how you view actual people you love vs fake characters in movies. and yest at the same time present this whole time stawmen arguments, it is bizarre to say the least. i do really like talking with you though.I also like the actual person that you are that I am aware of, that you are different to me then the pilsbury dough boy on a muffin wrapper in isle 7 at the grocery store.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  12. Talmi

    Talmi Audiosexual

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    I couldn't be more on point.
    You said about scientifics that most of them believe reality is real right ? There are too much pages on this thread I didn't search for the quote.
    I'm just discussing the topic. Tell me which part is dishonnest on my side. Is there any thing that I can say in this talk ?

    For your last question : reality IS real, and it is what it is.
    The way we experiment it, what meaning we give to it, is another story. Is it unnderstandable ?
     
  13. Talmi

    Talmi Audiosexual

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    We don't HAVE to do anything.
     
  14. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    YES, in order for meaning to be there, WE HAVE to be talking about those words in a way they represent what we say they are!
    it is in the context of meaning of words and the conditions for which a claim of ours represents what we say it does or not.
     
  15. Talmi

    Talmi Audiosexual

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    I haven't wrote that.
    Are you misreading me and misquoting me on purpose ?
     
  16. Talmi

    Talmi Audiosexual

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    THIS. THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED TO CONVINCE PEOPLE WITH.
    The rest doesn't matter, everybody agrees about reality existing.
    Good luck my friend.
     
  17. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    "You said about scientifics that most of them believe reality is real right ?"

    what are you asking? are you asking if scientists think when we learn about the world and test after test give same results that it is fiction? is that what you are asking? that the way computers work by electromagnestim is fiction? that scientists give press conferences saying " ladies and gentlemen, we have billions of pieces of demonstrable evidence which demonstrate the case that the earth is a oblate spheroid , because of all this demonstrable evidence is there, it could be fiction and it is just as likely that the earth is a pyramid shape floating in a giant bowl of quaker oats. good night folks."
     
  18. Talmi

    Talmi Audiosexual

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    I was answering to farao question about my previous remark regarding his previous comment that was responding to someone else remark. He is the one who wrote that. You need to follow better my dear sir.
     
  19. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    That is why it is the first thing in this thread on page 1 what the topic and entire thread is about.

    the rest DOES matter, it is just that you are not understanding HOW it matters, even though you live like it matters everyday.
     
  20. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    well sorry if i made a mistake.
     
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