i enjoy talking with you kloud

 

This topic is so important because ANYONE can be victim of fiction.

think about Hitler, it was a thought that was fiction he mistakenly thought was not fiction.

 

Much of this conversation reminds me of my college days listening to physics majors duel with philosophy or theology majors attempting to chop each other to pieces using the swords of semantics. So far, thankfully this conversation is a bit more civil.

 

An interesting thought about the big bang many dont know.

the model begins with a highly compressed condensed mass of energy that begins to expand

many people think the big bang says that something came form nothing this is not true it does not begin with nothing and something shows up. the model starts when the previously existing energy starts expanding.

 

i think that is because human beings conversation makes a massive difference, we might not be able to control our beliefs but when we learn more our minds change and we advance this is evolution of a person mind

 

the reason I named this thread what I did and made the proposition that I did is because although the proposition applies to each moment of our life, it is apparent to me through demonstrable evidence that the only way to believe in god(s) soul(s) or afterlifeS) is by having a thought and not differentiating fiction from not fiction, or special pleading because in most areas we do it just to survive.


what i am looking for is an example of believing in gods souls afterlives
without special pleading without turning " i dont know" into belief
or any example of making the proposition gods souls or afterlives are a part of reality, while still differentiating fiction from not .

 

Picture the very first time ancient man, picked up a rock broke it to a point to create an arrow head, and cut meat or killed animal with it.

that was differentiating fiction from not fiction.

they had to recognize it was the sharp point that in reality was able to cut and dull blunt rock didn't actually cut anything
they began to deal with reality , it is the birth of what would become science.

ALL thought is imagination we imagine.

but those rare times what we imagine matches to the way things actually are we transform our lives.

you can start from this very moment and no matter how quick your intelligence has been advancing. you can transform your life and take over the drivers wheel with this tool each moment , whether in conversation whether making an observation, the way you go about doing things, and how to accomplish what matters to you.

 

Step # 1

We ARE awareness.

Step #2 Our thoughts enter that awareness

Step #3 we recognize the thought for what it actually is, an arrangement of words only, no automatic value.

Step#4 we evaluate the thought to see IF that particular thought HAS value , IF it does NOT we modify it to correct WHAT was wrong with it.


How do we do the actual evaluation? by using the entire body of knowledge about reality for which is demonstrable.

the difference between reality and fiction. fiction is a lone island of storytelling.

Reality is one story where trillions of facts come together to create one thing (all that is real( or not fiction)
all things that are real connect to each other , fiction exists isolated on its own with no connection to reality or those things that have been demonstrated


try it out think about the facts of the human bodies organs, we can zoom into cells then zoom into chemistry then zoom into atoms all this knowledge about reality is one story. it all connects as one

only fiction has to forget all of reality to exist.

 

I know you can state all this much more elegant and precise

 

one of the things i been trying to do when talking to people all over, whether the internet or home or out all ages , is to try use language the way regular people do so as to not confuse but yes point taken but also if someone needed to hear it very broken down it is still literal and true that way as well but again point taken writing like that does not give the the full picture of it all.


I have had many situations for which younger kids or even not very bright adults couldn't fathom me until i talked " normal" , so i try to adopt both ways , sometimes you want to be simple about it because that is still literal, and other times you want to get into all the variables and more intellectual but i just want to say, that simple literal version is from the view point of observation.

if i think about myself a long time ago i needed to hear the simple version of something in order to make sense of the full in depth every is different with topics they dont get into everyday .

 

Very interesting. Please provide demonstrable evidence for this assertion (while of course not relying on subjective experience).

 

I often do the same thing with audio, it is one if not my greatest strength , and yes it can get so complex it can be head spinning especially when explaining how it works , i remember trying to explain and teach someone about compressor settings. it was frustrating as hell, because they were lost, but once i simplified then when we went back to what attack does decay does ratio does threshold does they could actually visualize it then when i played it form them i could see it click for them that had a lasting impression on me .

 

yes of course, I wanted to keep it simple and literal but yes some explanation is in order once someone is interested in it " what the hell do you mean by that?"

When I say we ARE awareness, what i am describing is something few are aware of ( pun intended) we live a modern life everything is so fast paced, we often forget we are NOT our thoughts. Our thoughts are one level down WE are the thing the thoughts enter into, and sometimes if we are distant, say thinking about the past or future and not in the present moment we have a thought we accidentally just accept because we don.t notice it enter our awareness.
picture 1 moment one second you are in that your not thinking or feeling maybe it didn't last long but i promise you have had it just a state of being or awareness, our thoughts are level down from us. anyone can learn to meditate by quieting the thoughts and feelings. when you do this you feel just awareness with nothing inside of it, then when you come out of meditation and the very first thought enters it appears in your awareness .


now of course when i am talking about this it IS in the context of a human experience that is what it is about, IF i was talking about what we actually are in reality i would say a collection of trillions upon trillions of living cells.

 

So just to be clear, your Step #1 is fiction?

 

"So just to be clear, your Step #1 is fiction?"

no it is the opposite of fiction. when describing the human experience or inside a human being the level of thought is demonstrably the second level not the first. thought is not unlike picturing a shape, that is to say you do not need to sequentially visualize shapes in your minds eye to feel the sense of self, similarly thought is the same .
thought is arranging words into a order to express something, you have to have consciousness or awareness to do that next step in.

 

So in other words at a deeper level than thoughts, subjective experience is non-fiction/Reality?

 

in order for my proposition to qualify as fiction, it would have no demonstrable evidence to support it.
but the proposition i made does have demonstrable evidence to support it and even you right this moment can repeat the test.

reality exists, then inside of reality a human being body exists, then inside of that a human mind exists, than inside that there is a way human thoughts objectively works that exists.

 

this is the part I love when people want to go further in depth and i thank you for it.

one can begin to get confused at the exact place we are beginning to talk about so i will try to be very clear.
In reality human beings a a collection of trillions upon trillions of living cells. the living cell is the single object, the human is the community of them. when we zero in on the brain to get to the mind , we find that the way it is constructed by brain cells and different types of them , is in a complex way then any other arrangement of cells because they can pass information along and have vast complex connections exactly like we see in computer world how the internet works, all those computers with all those pathways to travel not just one to another but many to many . when it comes to the brain it is chemistry that is passed and you can look into it because the scope of that is way to large here. What is important to your question is that our mind is " emergent" from our brain and how it actually works in reality. what this means is that in order to cross the barrier into talking about a human mind just the objective part we have to establish the way i just have.
now the mind is emergent and to wrap your head around what that means is think about a movie or film on a bluray. the movie is not the disc it is not the data, it is not the player, it is not the screen it is not the electricity that runs it, the bluray is emergent from it, when all the parts come together you have the movie. the movie is a different type of substance so to speak it is not physical it emerges from all the parts of the system , yet no human being ever insisted that a god of movies exists .
Now that we have arrived at the level of human mind. we can talk about just the objective part of it whether how thought works how emotions work anything you want but the only thing that pertains to this conversation is how our consciousness emerges , then how our thought is a level below that inside the framework of our consciousness.
sometimes analogy is all you have , because i cannot make this one comment several books in length . i am limited to an analogy of the computer world and it is accurate in this case. our consciousnesses is the operating system , thought is a program to run. visualizing pictures in the mind is a program to run. now our physical structure that all this comes from is the actual parts of the computer and what one might say the " subconscious:" process' we are unaware of is like the machine code.

now to get to your question because when i say " we are awareness, not out thoughts" I am taking the perspective of reality , then zooming into the brain then into the mind , and stopping at the objective aspect of the mind , which has demonstrable evidence, that is to say " there is a specific way human thought works as a level inside our consciousness and both of these are emergent form the physical structure of the brain.

so, in summary the proposition THAT a human being HAS awareness is not fiction it is reality.
and the proposition THAT the way a human being works related to thought, that thought is a second tier down and occurs inside of that awareness is NOT fiction it is reality.
Now what you are eluding to, is to say lets take the mind or awareness itself the consciousness the part that is emergent, and lets compare it to reality, specifically the physical structure of the body and brain made of cells how does it compare?
the answer is even though it is reality THAT we have consciousness, our consciousness is VIRTUAL , compared to the physical structure of reality made of cells, BUT that is because it is emergent just as the case of the movie it is not the disc or the data or the player or the screen or the electricity it is the sum of the whole complex system, and just like with the former the Movie is virtual in that specific comparison.

 

Ok, so subjective experience is not outside the realm of Reality (or at least "the opposite of fiction") if other subjects can have similar experiences using the same methods? Interesting. The science of yoga has provided techniques for "re-unification" with the divine for thousands of years. It may take a few years/decades of disciplined practice but there's plenty of demonstrable evidence to support it.s

I'm curious, in this sub-thoughts state of Awareness do you experience the same subject-object distinction as you do on the level of thoughts and concepts etc.?

 

http://t-off.khd-research.net/Internet/Images/UUNet_IP-Network_12.2004.jpg


http://jonlieffmd.com/wp-content/up...ork_representation_of_brain_connectivity3.jpg