Hello,

I make a lot of reggaeton and rap beats, but im trying to move into making orchestral pieces, as I would like to learn composition. Im trying to identify what part of the orchestra and instruments used to create the hit or like "stomp" in this song:

In case, im not specific enough, its basically the drum line, although I dont think its a bass drum... I think Its two different sounds (timpani possibly and something else hitting twice??) Its not limited to that piece, as Ive heard it before in a bunch of others, but looking at the wiki on modern orchestra, I cant figure out what it is... Thanks for the help!

 

Ok....I will stick my neck out here and take a guess that the sound you are trying to identify is a second timpani drum being hit with brushes. I am way outside of my comfort zone here. Any other suggestions?

 

thanks for the suggestion. I cant seem to find that sound anywhere, at any rate. I would love to use it, Ive heard it in a couple holst "the planets" pieces as well.

 

Such a well done piece, wonderful, and human natural playing, not samples inside. Just a Cello and a Viola and a Contra-Bass alternating from arco to pizzicato in Dm key (i - iv minor plagal and eventual V - i), the good is his harmony is that he used the iv chord with the 3rd on the bass on a gypsy style playing. The hamony pass by the VIIb chord giving a modal character. This chord works as an appogiatura chord.
The region of playing have a similar sound with cellos, composer in all time of history like to mix viola with cello.

The drums of a rock band must be understood as the same conception of a symphonic orchestra, but, all close together. The basic drum sounds we hear in this piece: Two snares and some other percussion. But the especial way of hitting drums in Cinema if different. Use hand, all sizes drumsticks, even brushes to build new physical sounds. I hear just a small groups playing, the basic sound of it are two snares, a cello and a viola. Believe, they don't need nothing more to construct big sounds.

What I like in the piece is the bass sound of the viola for fast playing, that remember too much the gypsy style, all chord minor gives the mysterious cold enigmatic character. Well, nobody can say why minor key can be called this way. A professor of composition said that minor key with pedal is "marble tombstone", to exemplify Vivaldi's winter.

Another professor of composition said that the 'Major key', is an old acquaintance of human ear. Think about your self, when we study tradicional harmony (the unique that works), you find that everything is clear and easy to do on Major keys, but 8 measures to become boring, so composers must modulate.

But, minor keys as used in this minor plagal D minor piece, the ear do not get boring, mysterious minor. Good work.

 

google look for big fish audio epic drums and epic drums 2

 

@ jayinthe813,

At a first listening, I don't hear any particular 'Snare Drum(s)' ! (Maybe I'm deaf... ), but no way to distinctively find one (or two) in this piece of music.
By cons, you can distinctively hear some soft hand played Percussions all along the piece and particularly well audible between '00:32' and '00:45'. I don't remember exactly their correct names right now, but you must certainly look toward 'Arabic Percussions' or very similar 'Ethnic Percussions'.
The more louder 'Hit' sounds, without being typically 'Taikos' (Typical Japanese Percussions), - they don't sound so strong and louder - are close, with their impact (attack), on the global sound (not easy to explain you how I feel this !).

It exists nowadays so numerous 'Cinematic Libraries style' focused on 'Drums & Percussions', that is somewhat difficult to advice you to choose one more than another, apart if you're an 'expert' of these 'Sound Libraries' (what I'm not !). But don't misunderstand me... I talk you about 'Cinematic Drums & Percussions' Libraries because you're looking to similar sounds for your creations. All the instruments that you hear in this piece of music are certainly played in a 'live' situation, I mean played directly by musicians, not necessarily taken from any 'Sound Library'... or if I'm wrong once again, I'm definitely deaf !!!

A last word about others instruments included in this piece. It seems to me there's rather 2 Cellos. I mean, you hear one on the left side and another playing in a lower register on the right side. But isn't so important as you're mainly looking for the 'Percussive' sounds of this piece of music...

Good luck in your 'Percussive' quest !

 

the sound of this kind of drums can be found in libraries like drums of war by cinesamples

to create a "|HIT" like sound in real orchestra all is needed is almost all the players need to play the same note or bunch of notes to create this feeling of "hit" big sound , of course the percussions and the big bass drum of the orchestra creates this unique sound

 

There is no secret to this it's just big bass drums in a large room you hear that in every film score game soundtrack. Lots of libraries out there offering that kind of sound.

 

I don't think it's a kick drum, nor an orchestral tom. Percussion is oftentimes difficult to recognise. All drums have different timbres. But the sound is also altered easily depending on the object you hit it with, where you hit, etc. I'm pretty sure it's not a tom 'cause they have a tonality and I can't hear a certain tone. Probably just a plain hit. Taikos have a more heavy sound. So I don't know for sure. It may be a hand-drum or something hit with a hand (could be a drum acoustic tom or a snare with different skins). I'm leaning towards that judging by the 'gypsy' style, as edweste said (nice analysis btw). It also fits a small group or band better. Sorry I can't be of more specific help. And although these cinematic libraries contain some nice, big sounds maybe you want something more like West Africa (smaller and tighter compared to big and boomy percussion).

Also, if I may go a little off-topic and turn this thread into a more general one: I always wondered how you'd go about getting this "dive" sound: (I think it's mostly done by cellos)
Example

1:28-1:32, 2:41-2:46 and towards the end.

Just pitching down doesn't seem to work and I've found no sample of it whatsoever. Gotta love acoustic instruments' articulations!

 

Trust me dude it's orchestral bass drums in a big room. The room makes them boomy and huge.

 

I agree "Bass Drum", because is the first orquestral instrument we must have in the symphonic orquestra to build impact. Now, if it is a Taiko or an African one. It's a good discussion, could be a game guess, guess, it's a Taiko, a bass drum, or a rock bass drum, all having the same archetype. I'm sure that a Japonese can be the first one to say if is a Taiko.

Get this tip. MICROSOFT did a cd a long time ago "Instrument Instruction", that is a must having, we just see the map of the world, ex.; Asia and pass the mouse over the instruments to play a demo. Any student of music must have. You'll learn, that is clear to hear the differences between darbouka (Darabukka) to a Doholla. But listen to the differences from the same archetypal instruments it's not easy if not from your culture.

As said above, you want to learn "Orquestration", but first you must learn "Organology", that's the mess. And remember that study/learn orquestration is not use, 'cinema big packs' ready to use do not teach nothing, but orquestrate is more than this, learn how to build your sound. I really can't figure in our history a battle going on, with snares around, imagine this scene after Alexandre got in Asia, a woman entered the real scene and started a mellow soprano song, Alexandre look to her and smile. Hollywood confused minds.

Tip:
Did you know that the the VIOLA is a small Cello, but really not a big Violin. It was build to make more clear the higher contralto sounds of cello, so if you hear higher cello and bass sound in the viola, you'll not identify, even musician of this instruments hardly recognize, I studied cello for 7 years, just some higher clear fast notes to say is not a second cello. The best way to learn this is, listen to much music as you can, 'String Quartets' are the basis for everything.

 

As far as I know cellos weren't always a fixed size and all those instruments stem from the violin. Anyway, since you play maybe you can tell me what that articulation I posted above is called or how you play it? Maybe something like what he's doing but on a more extended scale/range? And it's not even that glissando/portamento sound, it feels more like a huge dive/slide on the board.

 

If you're referring to when an instrument plays from on note to another without articulating each note, then the general term for that is legato. If you're referring to where a legato articulation with both glissando and portamento is used to move at least an octave up or down, then I believe that is just called a slide.
In my experience, the best implementation of legato for strings in a sample library would have to be LASS, hands down. They did an incredible job creating patches that could make up 1-12 step legato transitions without being very resource intensive. Another good library for brass legato would be the Cinebrass/Cinebrass Pro libraries via the "true legato" patches.

 

You are right, they were not fixed in size, but the matter is not size, but extension (tessitura). Viola D'Amore was the contralto problem, so they tried many times to reduce it's size to easy tune. Believe, they never got the perfection, that's a confusion to many instrumentists that play strings, they should know, but maybe don't like history.

You are right, they had a master 4 strings italien model design, the violin. The attempt was increasingly seeking bass, still today the human being seeks bass. The Bosendorfer piano have an plus octave lower, we have the Orquestra Contra-Bass 5-string. They Needed to build the contra-bassoon and contra-bass clarinet, flute in G etc. My luck was to have class with the composer and the best oboist of the world 'Heinz Holliger'. He said, if people do not know the meaning of the word 'contra' from the Latin, do not waste much time teaching music, and if you ask them why the 'english-horn' is named this way, if not invented, created , adapted in England, and people do not have a quick answer, forget. People still have sure that bagpipes is Irish. For a Keyboard player, G sharp and A flat are the same note, but never say that for a violinist.

The viola was the last instrument from the strings family to be build, and finally they could fill the big gaps seen on the papers.

The articulations and Effects they used too much in this piece is short détaché on short glissando, Spiccato and Pizzicato Bartok. (Détaché can indistinguishable joined to sound legato independently of bow directions.)

The basics of strings articulations are: Legato, Marcato, Staccato, Pizzicato, and the strong percussive "Pizzicato Bartok". The

Upon this categoty we can have Effects: Tremolo, Vibrato, Sppicato (fr. Martelé), Glissando, Portamento, Con Legno - side of the bow, wood hitting the string (listen to the exciting beginning from Mars - Mercury - Holst Planets)

If you listen to the piece you hear smooth glissando technique, but too much fast neighbors notes (bordaduras), and appogiaturas, sometimes sppicato appears on the time [0:19 to 0:20] just after the last pulse before the ritornello of the 6/4 measure, he just do one forte sppicato to turn back to the beginning of part A 7/4. I don't know if it has a name, but I named it "Rhythmic Appogiatura". Too much used in music to gain rhythmically motion between measures.

Glissando is a pure gypsy technique in music, their violin glissandi technique gain a record from Deustche Grammophon.
It can be very slow as in the famous glissando of Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue.

Learn more about the Gypsy Glissando hearing, Czardas or the gypsy guitarrist Django Reinhardt and Stéphane Grappelli gypsy influenced violin. Gypsies change the measure in music all the time. Brahms and Korsakov loved to hear gygpsy music and used in some compositions.

Confusions appears when things are translated to english, glissando and portamento, both slides the strings. They use glide to.
The Glissando is when you connect the notes during the glide, but in the portamento notes are not connect.

Both do glissando all the time in their music: See three videos in the spoiler, Gypsy pop styles, second about the differences,

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV6AB3WsNcM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU2EciADd8o

 

I like music jokes, is like a magician doing in front of your eyes, fast movements and they deceive you.

Before thinking in what kind of material to pump up your rhythm, you must think in the hiding material that makes it work better, mathematics.

One of the most intrigant thing I like in this piece is the complex measure, the regency did several times until find the points. By the way Microsoft has a cd (for win 98) only speaking of time signature and measure of Stravisnky's music.

These guys studies too much in composition, because easy 4/4 measure is well known for all of us. So, why not use something more complex.

Yesterday I was too sleepy, with low volume in my room, but today I had a close listen in higher volume. Most of the sound you want in the percussion is "Pizzicato Bartok", believe, don't waste your precious time looking for other big hit drums. The contra-bass play an octave lower, sometimes, doing percussive Bartok pizzicato and sometimes short détaché arco. Try to listen to the double notes on the C2 on time 0:14, just fingering twice, can confuse ears with a bass-drum. Listen the Bartok's quartets and you'll discover how string scan be percussive, some particular clicks, seems to be be hand percussion sometimes, can't explain what you neve eat before.

But my pleasure listening the piece you gave for our ears is the metric of it. Maths do composer better.
The piece is in 7/4 written, but changes to 6/4 and just once a 2/4 measure appears, doing more rhythmic.

The first 4 measures: each square is a measure (compasso) [The 7/4 has the acent on the first of 3 notes and on the 4th note, so read 3/4 + 4/4]. The piece has 17 measures.

INTRO:
I:_____7/4 | 6/4 | 7/4 | 6/4

A:____7/4 | 6/4 | 2/4 || 7/4 | 6/4 :||_____ play 2 times (ritornello) Full percussion and pizzicato Bartok

B:____7/4 | 6/4 | 7/4 | 6/4 :||____ two times, then go back to A: and CODA (coda for those who don't know Latin is literally tail) [Less percussion]

Coda:_7/4 | 7/4 | 7/4 | 7/4 ||____ the last measure thetic end in 5th counting, after it two 'quarter note' pauses.

From this point, you can begin anything, first of all we must understand music regency, without it we are nothing.

Architeture music. That makes all the differences. I like to analyse Brad Mehldau, he is an architect.

See a video example with pure glissandi with "THE VIOLINIST" Itzhak Perlman.

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6ufBxGC_mI&feature=fvsr

 

thanks everyone. Yeah, Ive heard some decent stuff on youtube, even using VST vs live instruments, and thanks for the samples suggestions. There is a lot to learn in the foreseeable future, and im glad I found such an awesome forum!

 

If you want to delve deeper into articulations I sugget you try out Prosonus Orchestral Collection by Big Fish Audio. The ensembles sound a bit synthy but I like the solo ones and it has a vast amount of articulations for brass, strings and percussion. I really love it and it can be a great add-on to every 'big' library. Plus, you'll get a feel for them. And yeah, that pizzicato trick is used for percussion sound. Another trick (mostly for rock) is to layer an acoustic guitar with the other guitars and then magically it gets another character (due to that extra steel sound). Trumpets and stuff can have sound modifiers, like wahs... There's also many other instruments like music boxes, vibraphones etc. You can get some 'haunting' sounds with flutes, thrilleristic "ticking clock" sounds with xylophones and other wood instruments that can make a difference. Especially, with (acoustic) sting instruments the possibilities are pretty much endless. When you want something more weird or with much character you need something more than a library. Every little nuance can make a difference. Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbXTEPY0TWs
I don't think I'd be able to reproduce that (at least the character) with any library whatsoever.

As for my "cello diving slide" sound I guess I can't do it by computer means or without actual recordings. Anyway...