I usually listen to the radio stations with my apps. About 30000 ones from almost every genre and subject (children, christian, ... heavy metals). Almost non of them spreads out shit. By comparing them to my semi-production, I get more disappointed. I mean they are much higher than me. By my way of learning and making efforts I can never reach them. Do you have the same feelings? When do I allege that I'm professional? I think never ever. Do you have any solution for that reality?

I also should say that Radio (or Internet Radio) differs very much from TV and Internet. Radio is mostly for sound lovers.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2016

Foster,this game demands a working man,someone who is willing to go over the top.
Its not just about music,its about a man`s fight in life and how far you are willing to go.
It takes many years to get somewhere,to develop yourself,dont kid yourself,music production,composing,song writing,these
things are among the hardest things to master in life,its right up there with the most demanding jobs.
Not to mention you have to incorporate technical aspects with the emotional,that just makes it so much harder,since
most jobs are just technical.
Keep on doing it,you will evolve slowly.

 

Most of the most talented, creative people don't even make it.

Music, like acting, dancing, writing films, etc etc. Most people make a really shitty living. They'd give up, do something else, but then someone not that much more talented/original/better looking than them suddenly becomes a massive star and they think 'I'll just carry on waiting tables and playing with my band at the weekend cos i can still make it!'

Most of these people will always wait tables, that's the price you pay for not giving up on your dreams. But don't listen to the people who say 'keep working and you'll make it' cos statistically you won't.

 

I was a professional musician for about 7+ years (meaning I made a living on playing/performing music).

If you are thinking radio/TV, etc then yes - you can make a living as a songwriter and/or performer if your songs are played alot on radio and TV. Royalties. I get a payment/check two times a year from STIM (Swedish version of ASCAP, BMI, etc).

 

@ Foster911,

By "higher than me", what exactly you're talking about... I mean, in Audio/Sound quality, or in Musical quality (in terms of musical composition) ?

If your disappointment is inclined toward Audio/Sound quality, don't forget that most Radio/Broadcasting Stations use specific gear to 'maximize' the final result of their reproduced music ('Loudness Maximizers', specific 'Limiters',... ), and all these (professional) gear are really expensive ! Certainly not within the reach of every budget !!!

But maybe you already know that (?)

Vast topic, isn't ?

In some sense, you can consider you as a 'Professional' when you make your 'Bread and Butter' (earn your living) with your Music, Productions, Works,...
Apart this, you can also see you as a 'Professional' each time that you're yourself fully invested in a project (in a more philosophical view ! ).

 

i see it like this simply.

its the same as "amature vs professionel"

the professionel one : 1 that makes a profit from his profession.

i dont carre how the skilllevel is. you dont have to be the best to make a profit.

 

A professional has deadlines. A professional always delivers at the end of said deadline. A professional gets paid after delivery.

You invest a lot of time in developing useless threads around here. Ironically, this one is not. If you'd spend that time in actually finishing projects, not developing "easy ways to finishing projects", you'll be on par with the pro guys. Pro guys are people like you. Think of athletes and supporters: a supporter may know every-freakin'-thing in the history of that sport - teams, names, strategies, coaching tactics, you name it - but is still not an athlete. Don't be a supporter

 

This idea has been mentioned several times by myself and others. Yet here we are again talking about what to do with finished music instead of actually finishing some product and thus having something to show and experience gained.
@foster911 you're comparing yourself to what you hear on the radio but you haven't finished 1 single track to even put there if you could.
If i were you i would focus on finishing on an EP first then you can ask what can be done with it. Because right now you are putting the cart before the horse.

 

Actually, being a pro muso is more than just being able to do one thing. It's a complete package which also includes, arriving to gigs on time, being clean and tidy, looking the part for the public, having a broad knowledge of our trade; not being so up yourself and not being so drunk or stoned that you're incapable of fulfilling your obligations to the people paying you - even if you think you're being cool by being a jabbering idiot. The list goes on...

I've been a pro music from the age of 15 (I'm 60 now) and it's clear many 'youngsters' have a very self centered and skewed attitude to the business. Yes, it's a business and many don't treat it as such or they let their ego's get in the way - as we have seen on the boards all too frequently.

Learn your trade; study every day some aspect of the business. Read books on history, harmony, composers, how to read music (it may actually come in handy one day!), as well as marketing and promoting yourself, (and as before... the list goes on). It seems there are a few around here that regard themselves as better than classical composers and/or they plead for the magic bullet to get them onto the fast track.

As one example, many use loops in their music making - mainly in EDM production I have to say, and use a chord sequence that is so basic, it's pathetic. If that is what you do for most of your content you've chosen to do that but I regard this attitude as someone who uses a paint by numbers kit and then thinks they are as good (sorry better) than some old dead guy called Rembrandt!

Finally, being a pro doesn't include posting pointless posts like this (and like so many of your previous posts). To post this in the first place is proof to me you're an amateur - and not a particularly accomplished one.

Try actually *doing* something for a change.

 

Well, I consider myself a professional musician because it's my profession. The amount of gigs I have is not enough for a living so it's an "extra" to my other job. That being said, that doesn't mean I'm a great musician. I'm just good enough to perform my musical job as requested and put the best I have on it.

If that is a right or wrong perspective... I don't really care. I'm self-critic enough to know how I stand against other musicians (no one will ever need to knock me back down to earth, lol). That doesn't mean that other players that have more skill or income are professionals and I'm not, just more successful.

Hell, I'm happy enough to be able to earn something playing music, so I can't complain! haha

 

What's the distinction between "slut" and "whore?"

Almost-joking aside, there are perhaps different conceptions of "professional" musicianhood. There is the session musician who sets out to make a living at what he or she does, comporting him/herself professionally (being ontime and agreeable to work with), studying and practicing music as much as possible, working on the ability to play in different styles. There is the conservatory-trained instrumentalist with the "chops" to join the orchestra. There is the singer-songwriter or band who know how to present themselves just-so, and to perform styles of music which are more familiar than original, deliberately worming themselves into marketabile acceptance and being fiscally rewarded. There is the "alterna" band who don't really sing and can't play instruments conventionally at all, yet who exude attitude and have been around for long enough to be "influential" to younger musicians who revere them as "Icons," so they have longevity in a career. There is the dude with the laptop and cool shades who gets flown around the world to "make beats" and play others' recordings in a set. There is the unpresupposing geek with computer at home who'd lucked into making music that is exactly what enough film makers think they need for soundtrack music so that licensing pays his rent. There is the YouTuber with the bazillion hits on a viral video of a novelty song. There's the girl who'd recorded an album in Garageband using its instruments and their presets and became such an underground sensation with it that she's toured Europe. There's the avant-artist with enough Patreon supporters living vicariously through him/her/it to not have to work a regular job. And so on.

I myself have been on the outside, the inside, and every other side of the "game," and can tell you that it's of paramount importance to be doing what you love to do, with music, before you can be "successful" or in case you never "make it" but have managed not to have it ruined for you by disappointment or disillusionment. Not letting failure ruin music for you is as difficult as gaining success.

 

Question themselves is a good thing. But not every day. Personally I listen to a lot of Orchestral music. Because everything is there.
The choice of instruments is key. Whether for any compositions. The most difficult is to understand what people hope to hear in these difficult times. What are the musical trends in our day? Hard to say. Must Is it at all costs go to this trends? Absolutely not.
My principle is to make music that I love. And nothing else. And like you I often question myself. But I trust in my work. He must at all costs.
And I am always pleased to be the next day to listen and improve my work. And if that displeases someone, I don't care about you.

That's all.

 

In my experience, a pro musician isn't usually the most talented one. Virtuoso people are usually very hard to handle, and club promoters and managers don't want someone who can't deliver as they ask. Pros usually show up on time, learn their parts and musical phrases, take notes of what they need to focus on (which isn't necessarily sight reading music charts), have the attention span required to listen to their own playing and follow directions at once, can learn a song fast (intricate details on the sub-eight note won't matter much unless it's in the chart), and keep their mouths and instruments shut between songs or takes. You do that and trust me, you'll be number one getting pro calls for live gigs. Music production? That's a different story.

EDIT: just in case this isn't obvious, you have to know the ins and outs of the instrument you play and know at least basic music theory.

 

Last edited: Jun 23, 2016

You can always conduct yourself professionally, but even if you have the requisite skill level, if there's another factor preventing you from being hired repeatedly and consistently then you're not a professional.

Sadly, sometimes the only thing keeping someone from becoming a professional is lack of timely appeal. Sometimes people just don't have their finger on the pulse of what people are interested in at the moment, or are otherwise too "out there" to translate their vision and talent into something monetary at the time.

In other words, being relevant is different from being professional. You can be a "successful" artist, so long as you are delivering your intended message with the intended aesthetic, even if you go primarily unnoticed and uncompensated. Yet if you're looking for societal acceptance, bragging rights, livelihood, and a way to prove to other people that you've achieved a goal and that you're not a loser then being payed to do what you do is really the only benchmark.

 

To do provide a good or perform a service in exchange for financial compensation.
I know professional musicians who aren't at all artists.
And then those artists I hold dear to my heart that aren't, by socially accepted standards, professionals as they aren't able to subsist solely from their work.
What is professional about them is their attitude and mindset towards learning, evolving and ultimately expressing through their craft.

Of course there are those that fall in both categories and if that's what you're aspiring to I think a good place to start is asking yourself what's more important to you. The artform and your contribution or the reward.

If you're in it for the money, fair enough. Unless there's love there for the actual tradecraft though, then shit may start to wear thin and it will become another cubicled, monkey-suited, 9-5 gig (figuratively speaking).
I have to confess that my feeling for this wonder-full thing we do goes far beyond love and often lays in a state of limerence.

To me the only thing that separates a professional from the artist is human nature, brother. Want and need.
I don't have to tell you there were many of us who were completely under-appreciated in their time and only after death did people realize. To the outsider THAT shit must have truly seemed kafkaesque but to the one immersed in their true love, there simply was nothing else. Polymaths excluded.

I rant.
Do what you love. Love what you do. Everything else will fall into place around you. If you're fortunate it may even be in your time. If not, fuck it man, what you left behind was true and of you.

And I'm still a Billy Goat Gruff, bitch.

 

Last edited: Jun 23, 2016

"Professional musician" means a homeless guy who is financially struggling.

 

Yep! Stop thinking about it and FINISH something!

Don't worry that it's not up to pro standards. The more you finish; the more you'll learn. Though that experience you'll get better, and find things somewhat easier. The 1st track I finished was a complete pile of (unfortunately we don't have an emoji for this) poo, as were a few after that.
I did remix comps for practice in different genres, but at the end of the day I FINISHED tracks.

I used to, then I realized that it was a distraction, holding me back from what's important; being me. The person I am molds the music I make. A lot of people won't like it, but at least it's me. When all is said and done, you can't put value on you're own music, only the people who listen to it can.
So take the advice that people have given you and go FINISH SOMETHING!

 

Thanks guys giving me solace.
I always have a bad feeling sitting behind my DAW. I mean the way I produce music (or whatever you call) is so feeble. When I turn on the radio and think about the process of their making music I really do not have anything to say. Yes I can insist on my way and do somethings but again my problem is the process I'm performing (working with synths, loops, midi, ...). I can specialize on them but what I produce is not fine and sumptuous. In the previous thread I named a station:
http://www.sadclassicalmusic.com/sadclassicalmusic.pls
When I listen more to it, I discover more the utter futility of my way of making music. Not blaming the genres I breathe in them but please listen at least 1 hour to it and compare with yours.

 

I'd say they're doing it for the love and it doesn't matter as long as they enjoy it and help some people with their music.

Unfortunately, What most people refer to as success in modern age, is not more than getting rich and famous. The real success is having an impact on other lives. It should be inside you, in your mind. It's about how much you contributed back to the world.

 

In my view, the process should be the least of your worries if you are in for writing songs. These modern days of the bedroom producer gives people the impression that you have to be a composer-arranger-recording engineer-mixer-mastering maverick to put out tracks. In reality, the more you read about the "professional process" (musictech, SOS, for instance) you get yo realize the high-end producers work in teams. Let me explain what I mean:

If you are focusing on writing the song, you should focus on working out melodies, lyrics, progressions, scales, dynamics, and so on. If you think of song and your mind is filled with loops, synths, VSTs and DAW techniques, you have a problem. Maybe you shouldn't be working on your own material. Find someone else to produce even for free and get tons of practice on helping song ideas become hit-parade successes.

AC/DC stated that they'd never do an unplugged album when the MTV thing was the fashion of the 90s. They claimed their songs were meant to be electric riffing guitar licks. However, when KISS were asked why they decided to do the unplugged album, Paul Sanley said that it's all about the song. If you can't make it rock in an acoustic guitar, then it's not a good song. What I mean is that if you focus in the dressing too much, you miss the focus of the meal. Composing doesn't need all the bells and whistles of arranging and mixing. Try to separate the two: if you realize that you write beautiful melodies and chord progressions in a minimalistic approach, then you got the ticket. Anyone will want to help you produce your tracks. If your songs suck, you have two options. Learn to write better songs or focus on other aspects of music production. Dave Pensado delivers great mixes, but I've never seen a song written by him. Would you say he's not successful?