Hi all,
I'd like to ask for advice on kick pitch that may yield widely different techniques for implementation. I work in Reason, my track is in E. I've got an NN-XT handling the Low part of the Kick, and I'm patching into Ableton in order to use its frequency analyser. Now, ideally, I'm aware that it's good to keep the Low Kick no deeper than 60Hz (50 at the max) to allow the 40-60 Hz range for Deep Bass, as well as the fact that it's almost always a necessity for it to match the key of the track. Therein lies my problem. No amount of semi-toning, pitching or similar stuff changes the fact that a Low Kick at E is essentially a 41,5Hz thing, as the analyser shows. EQing obviously won't create harmonics that simply aren't there - so that's off the table until later - and tuning it up to around 60Hz obviously shifts the pitch by almost a fifth up. In my favourite techno tracks (be they E,D,B or whatever), I'd have to assume the producer follows the 60Hz ground rule while still matching the low kick with the pitch of the song, especially because it's the Low kick that can cause more trouble than others if it clashes with the overall pitch. What am I doing wrong, and what might be a specific way of fixing the issue in Reason?

Thank you for taking a look!

Dan

 

hi, Mirrorgrain,

as for Reason, i am not enough good with it to say anything, also i would rather have a couple of questions...

are you sure that you have to build this thing up so minutiousely as you try it?

are you sure that the things (bass, kick, sub, etc.) will (and must) be overlapping on the timeline?

are you sure that the kick must be on the base frequency (can not use any other harmonic one)?

do you want to try some side chained compression (if everything must sound always at the same time)?

are you sure that the key of the song must stay as it is?

i think if you put up too much rules and you can not follow them, take out the rule with the least (or even with the worst) consequences, otherwise you will be stuck with the insoluble problem (instead of creating your track)...

i always thought there are no rules in creation...
please, give it a try "outside the box"...

all the best...

 

I dont remember the numbers off the top of head but for example if a sounds main resonance is at 90Hz then that equals the note of 'F'. Again this is an example I dunno if 90Hz actually equals 'F' or not.

Basically if you want to stick to a specific frequency range for the kick then youre keeping yourself in that keyrange if you want the kick to be in key with the rest of the track.

I think this is pedantic in most cases. Fuck the numbers and just use your ears *yes*

 

hi, Mirrorgrain,

i hope this does some help...

all right, i felt if i can only ask those questions, i must try other things, too...

all the best...

 

I am a prodigy. Pretty damn close with my 90Hz = 'F'

Good advice nadirtozenith. The chart you posted is exactly what he needed I think.

 

yes, you are, seemingly...

all the best...

 

Thank you all for the replies! You see, that's exactly the thing: I do use my ears to begin with, and I have a pretty good set naturally - it is only now that i've started to use the analyser because i've been referencing my track with pro tracks back and forth and was noticing a more pronounced "booming" in mine, while the equally deep kick of the pro ones didn't irritate the ears quite as much. Hence, my question was taking for granted the techno theory that it is always advisable to have the kick and bass in the same key. I got so far as to understand that EQ won't make a difference there.

Nadirtozenith - thank you for the chart, it confirms my "41Hz" = "E" observation, I was just wondering if it's possible to bump the frequency up to 60Hz without compromising the low key of 'E'.

The reason I'm so pedantic is because I don't like much of the amateur recordings online at all: they are rushed and often ignorant of some pro techniques, and I hear it easily. I would prefer to be slow than to be an average producer. And i say this with respect, because i learn a lot from other people! But I don't like their finished productions 90% of the time.

Here's a cool tune for you all by one of my favourite producers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpOu1Ri_2q8 He uses slight sidechaining with the bass as well, it's a good idea because the deep kick and bass are very close here. I think what i'll do is put an envelope controlled filter to see if I can remove more of the frequencies below 40Hz, and afterwards EQ, then sidechain. Thanks for trying, guys!

 

Eq cut frequencies around the 120Hz or above (depending on the kick) Use you graphice EQ and a narrow boost to find where the booming is coming from. Then just cut it as much as you can without compromising the sound of the kick.

 

hi, Mirrorgrain,

please, do not forget that after the polished mix there is one even more polished stage, the mastering, where all the shortcoming may be pulled aout, and so much beautiful things may be added... *yes*

the envelope controlled filter is a very good idea, it also might mean that you can be more subtle with your side chained compression... *yes*

all the best, you are very welcome...

 

Paus - good classical tip with the booming and the Q, that's what I usually do (with the mid kick usually, when we're talking above 100hz). Nadirtozenith - true about mastering, no two ways about it.

Anyway, to conclude, I think I'll continue on my quest...60hz is too high of a note...too audible. Will have to experiment more. Cheers!

 

to tune deep kicks, I use voxengo span (free from the devs site)as my analyzer. It has a really cool feature. It will tell you the freq and the corresponding note of where ever the cursor is in the display. I just point the cursor to the peaks in the kick to see what pitch its hitting. Then I use the cents tuning in ableton to get it on key. I go for the closest scale interval, not always necessarily the root/tonic. Sub freqs seem to be the most susceptible to artifacts when tuning.

 

all right,

observe (and know of) all the rules, but do not stick with them too strictly, too much, it takes (at least for me) out the organic flow of the creation in music... *yes*

do all the midi parts, check if there are real overlaps (frequency-wise, time-line-wise), then apply as much of your chosen rules as needed (and manageable), keeping the whole in mind (written by one who usually goes for the possible tiniest microdetails)...

before i forget again (shit), there is bazzism from ism which also contains the possibility of frequency tuning of deep kicks (right click on the frequency button, on the popup you can check and choose the needed frequency)... *yes*

all the best...

 

hi, subgenre,

> sub freqs seem to be the most susceptible to artifacts when tuning

this is really very true... never tune them, generate them as new if needed (possibly with some gain weighting downwards the deep part of the scale)... *yes*

i will check this voxengo thingie, too, thanks for that...

all the best...

 

Hi nadirtozenith,

Ive seen the bassizm plug but never investigated it. I actually own subboombass which does sub freqs very well. Its hits nicely around the 40hz range. I usually just make an 808 sounding sine patch with a quick decay and just play the desired pitch.

But I do use the voxengo span plug to find the pitch of my mid/high/layered kicks and tune them properly.

Glad I was able to help.....
--
sG

 

Another technique to consider is sidechaining your kick with your bassline so that your bassline drops when the kick hits...There are some vids on youtube that demonstrate how it works. It will punch your kick through your mix and it will relieve some of the phasing issues. I will also say that it's something you have to experiment with intensely to get the desired effect, the idea is to basically do it so fast that you don't notice it happening in your song. Just a thought...

 

sidechaining and tuning *yes*

 

hello,

> I do use the voxengo span plug to find the pitch of my mid/high/layered kicks and tune them properly

there was no misunderstanding... *yes*

the bazzism thing can be used as the starting point, it has its very clinical clean sound (intended so, of course), needs aadded processing, depends on the (sub)genre (sorry for the irresistible pun), very flexible in its programming... *yes*
here i mentioned it only for the fast possibility of checking if its ending frequency lies right with the musical key of the material... *yes*

sub boom bass is also very good, i do use it often, too... *yes*

all the best, need some sleep, gone to bed...

 

Thanks for your reply Decalion. Yes, i've been using sidechaining for a couple of years now. You're correct in stressing its importance. My initial question was relating to how the rule for matching the root note of a track can be followed while keeping the note of the kick quite deep, but also at 60Hz. I suppose we've taken this topic elsewhere now, but I gotta say it's nice to have everyone discussing stuff lively. More than what I could say for some other forums where people are too uptight to come back to elementary stuff.

Also - SubGenre, thank you for the Voxengo tip, didn't know it was free, looks great, especially with that note feature you mentioned!

 

another tip when using multiple kicks.

If I got layered kicks firing off at the same time, sometimes ill try flipping the phase of one of the kicks back and forth just to make sure its not phasing/clashing with the other kick.
There is no hard fast rule for this technique. Just make sure your monitoring on something that can reference the lows properly and trust your ears.

I guess maybe you could use a phase correlation meter with both/all your kicks feeding it and go for the slimmest/monoish reading?

 

Not really an issue in my current situation.