Hopefully I am posting it in the correct forum.

Is there anyone who is working with convolution reverbs? We mostly like algo reverbs because of many reasons but since Reverberate came out with Fusion IR, my faith in convo reverb is gradually getting restored.

I have a question related to Reverberate specific ER and positioning parameters. I found it quite useful to use it on orchestral instruments. Earlier, I used to pan the instruments on mixing panel in Studio One. Recently I discovered that it can be done in Reverberate so I tried to play with the position, diffusion knobs etc for panning and the results were quite satisfying.

However the problem is I don't have any measurements or calculations of how it should sound in a large/medium hall, i.e., what should be the distance/diffusion/separation/predelay values for specific instruments (separately). My final reverb, which is a large hall, is on a Fx channel while each instrument has it's own independent channel from where they get the reverb through 'send' or 'pre fader'. I put Reverberate ER on every insert and in Reverberate I manipulate the position, diffusion and other parameters to pan the instrument to it's correct orchestral position. Question is if any of you using ER for positioning, is there a method you have adopted to place the instruments far or near using any predefined calculations?

Hope am clear in my query. Thank you in advance and please let me know of your method. I will much appreciate your effort if you quote the value of each orchestral instrument. I know about VSS but I think the Reverberate ER is more natural.

 

If you were interested in simulating a real concert hall, you might be interested in the PhD thesis by Jens Jørgen Dammerud:
"Stage Acoustics for Symphony Orchestras in Concert Halls".
http://www.akutek.info/Papers/JJD_Stage_acoustics_PhDthesis_96dpi.pdf

Alternatively, you might consider that the formula for speed of sound in dry air at sea level can be expressed as 331.4 + 0.6Tc metres/second, where Tc is Celsius temperature. The sound amplitude, frequency or wavelength is irrelevant.The air itself determines the speed of the sound.

 

I recommend using Virtual Sound Stage 2 (VSS2) to handle room placement/panning and ERs, then you can disable/turn down the ERs inside of Reverbate and just use it for the reverb. VSS2 will take care of the ERs and make your job a bit easier.

 

Sorry for late reply. I will definitely read it. Thanks for the share.

If you can further elaborate on the formula with an example that would be awesome. Trying to have at least a little grasp on the subject.

 

Yeah thanks but I have it. As I said earlier Reverberate simulates a much better ER response as per my ears. I am trying to use Reverberate for ER basically. Tail can be the reverb of your choice - convo or algo. If you have Reverberate, try out in this way. There IS a wow factor in it. Thanks again for replying.

 

I don't know whether to like your post or what to do with it. Amazing info here and deserve all good rankings and stars, really really thankful to you.

Now I need time to read your post and read the links and digest everything --- at least as much as I can. I don't want all this information to let go like this. Will come back, hopefully with more questions if you don't mind

Many thanks again.
Best!

Edit: Oh and yes I had the Hiroyoshi Shiokawa and Jens Holger Rindel study before but didn't get the chance to read it. Thank you for the link as well.

 

Last edited: Jan 6, 2016

One of the big problems comes from what kind of libreries you are using in the template...ER`s, placement and choosing the right tale could be more complex mixing Sample modeling stuff with Berlin woodwins , as an example...I have spent almost two years triying to find the best ER's from canvolution reverb or algorithmics...and, i now, I get a almost perfect matching Harp sound from Harry Potter's OST with Cinesample concert harp, Silverspike R2 for positioning and QL Spaces or Lexicon PCM random hall...But...it' doesn's works at the same way for Sample modeling, Lass, etc etc...but---at the same time it's perfectly compatible with Berlin strings ER'S coming from his own basic sound and a tail of Phoenix verb!!

It's very difficult to find a right response even you can calculate the right formulas for positioning. Vss2 it's a good tool, but in some cases, nothing to do with reverberate or the old ER of Altiverb Todd AO for brass, etc etc
...Welcome to a world of nightmares! ;)

Sorry, I don't speak English very well..

 

That would be cool. Catch you later.

 

Shouldn't the ER IR be made/recorded from specific position in space/on stage? I mean, like in altiverb, you have separate IRs for separate distances. ERs are how you persive the distances, so, I would say, you can't use the same ER IR for that and get the real distance separations.

With altiverb, one can make a great job with positioning (ofc, we are talking about dry samples). A used it a lot, but found that it is too much hastle, and made myself concentrate more on music, compositions, orchestration, etc... and I used only relab lx480 ...and LASS exclusively No ERs, just floating music xD ...These days, I am back to messing with ERs, I am working hard on finding just a glimpse of that 3D room... and acually, right now, I believe PhoenixVerb could be all we need (and R2... I hope AU will release it soon :P). The ERs on that thing are fantastic to my ears. I am finding a real depth in that reverb (LX480 has it too). I haven't tried it in orchestral setup yet, but was messing today with solo piano, and I got high hopes that will work really well with LASS.

BUT, remember one thing...film score (hollywood scores) quite often dont sound like a concert hall music. Modern enginers use quite a lot of close miking, and cheating, to get, well...emotion, energy...modern music. Even in full concert hall positioning, those flute solos are often very close Much closer than in a real hall with real orchestra.

 

Your English is okay, @sonydmx. You express your thoughts better than some people who have English as their first language.

 

Thank you !@DarthFader (my lord) ... I want to add than the new Metropolis ark of OT, has the perfect match between stage position, ER's and tale to emulate a stage scoring by itself...close the eyes and you feel the energy coming from the musicians...that's exactly what I miss and many different libraries (except Mural strings), and now, the main goal is put the rest of instruments around this particular sound..so, sometimes i think I am so closer and suddenly boomm!! new changes again!

I used many different ways to rise "that kind of sound" of OST's masters, obviously John Williams is the main reference listening first trilogy of Star wars, Lost ark, Harry Potter, etc...there are subtils differences between those and the last trilogy.So I understand than one of the best ways to achieve something near (in a 10%) to that sound, is to think like him in his way to orchestrate music. That has a lot of benefits when you are triying to mix your compositions to create that SPACE where you can apreciate how the french horns are sounding as in a perfect "close space" to the left at the same time you are listening the violins A section to the left too, but clearly in a different depth, so I think it's a good practice to compose "fake" little compositions just to emulate how to get the best stage placement without London Symphony orchestra, Abbey Road etc...

May be sounds weird...but now when I load some of that stuff as an audio reference in the template, I "kidnapped" different instruments playing above, just listening if I am "In" or "out" of the plane..matching EQ and compressing reverb..it's hard, but it works! It's not the right way, I know....but since the times of Beat Kaufman and his old tutorials of VSL and Altiverb to nowadays, the things changed...and if you don't have options to afford IRCAM Spat, MIR etc, I need to use the imagination! hahaha...

Jeery Goldsmith and John Williams are close in their aproach to get very special textures, mainly in brasses, combining woodwins for create very special textures..very complex, but once you get a template with that kind of possibilities, you are the one!

Greetings from Barcelona to Audiosex.pro comunity!

 

@sonydmx Barcelona! Barcelona és el meu lloc favorit. I worked there for a short time. Happy memories.

Ups! I forgot to ask. Are you are Catalan?

 

Yes!! I do!!
Really?? I am glad you have good memories about the City!! It seems to be far away from Atlantis! haha....

 

¡bravo
I think the musical tradition of Catalonia is beautiful.
Also, I like the music of Lluis Llach and other Nova Cançó singers.

 

Uf! Lluis Llach!...May be it can sounds strange, but I never think musically in thas kind of artists...They are good people, but his tradition is based on politics, against the system and so...good lyrycs, but...I should to have born in EEUU or UK musically talking...And I played in the same scenarios with Mr Llach and others, as a "mercenary", a long long time ago...

What kind of job did you make here in Barcelona? as a musician?

 

No. I am sorry it was not music. Sóc un director de cinema. That is my job. I was a musician before but... well... shit happens.

 

Ah!! Interesting!... Do you speak Català??? hahaha... I do works for short movies and videogames, recently for Ubisoft, so...Who knows!

 

Because we are by now very much "Off Topic", I sent you a small PM.