Well foster911,u r stubborn,do what u want,it s pretty useless wasting time with u since u ve chosen your path

 

I occasionally peruse this site in the hope of one day resuming my interests in audio technology. Maybe even start recording or using more tech in my musical life. Alas most of the time music is at the bottom of a very long list. However reading this particular thread compelled me to sign up and contribute.

Firstly I get the OP intrigue in trying to come up with 'new' 'methods' of helping one remember music ideas or theory. I also get duskwings and others strong arguments against. Perhaps a little dogmatic yet very true (Using numbers to sing notes(intervals) of a chord/harmony or scale is not necessarily a bad idea for improving relative pitch). To sum up everyone has their own way, many great players never studied very hard or could read music.

A lot of different and some fairly complicated topics have been discussed from enharmonic #s, bs to the equal temperament 12 tone system. I was waiting for someone to bring up The Lydian Chromatic Concept by George Russel. Ever wondered why stacked thirds on a keyboard sounded better if the lowest note was F ?

I have not read everything in this thread so may have missed it but no one has mentioned the cycle of fourths/fifths, why ?
I don't mean to patronize the OP but understanding them is a pretty important aspect of music theory. It'll help in knowing the # and b keys. Relative major/minor ect.

The 4ths and 5ths are the only perfect intervals other than the tonic. Here are two short articles I think you may be interested in (Nothing to do with me BTW).

http://drbop.com/intervals-part-one/

http://drbop.com/intervals-part-two/

It's brief but a little complex. Basically every interval can be inverted and then paired. Each pair adds up to nine.

C up to F is a 4th, F up to C is a 5th. 4+5 = 9

You may want to write out some of your own examples to test it for yourself.

 

because it s pretty useless trying to show the circle of fifths to someone who insists on using only flats, proving that he doesn t undrstand and doesn t want to understasnd the foundamentals of music.And even if u hsow him the circle of fifths this won t help him to understand intervals

 

There's no reason for it to sound any different when other notes are the lowest if it is a perfectly tuned instrument (to 12 equal tones division).

Fundamentals of music are not the same thing as fundamentals of music notation but I guess that will never get though your head.

As I've said before, sharps and flats made sense when the instruments' tunings were tempered (not equal), which made for instance a F# be a different note (and sound) than Gb. If you have 12 equal tones division, the notes are the same in every key because their ratios never change. I don't know how people can think they know so much about music without knowing basics such as this but anyways, people here seem more concerned about saying "I am right so you MUST be wrong" instead of thinking about info that complements other info.

If a guy comes here and wants to use a piano roll, how could "I don't use piano roll, fuck that" be the answer? People seem to think that intervals only happen in staff music... please, go study what things really are, why they are the way they are and where did they come from.

 

I am more intrigued to see if people find Dr Bops method of understanding interval relationships any use.

Kouros, I have no problem with piano roll or any method of making music. Apart from maybe auto-tune...
Judging by your previous comments you may not agree that key makes a difference. It does however make a difference due to the timbre of an instrument and it's relevant overtone series.


If you play C E G B D F A
1 3 5 7 9 11 13
on a keyboard then the ear will hear C as being the key. In this case the F sounds bad due to the overtone series

If you play F A C E G B D F
1 3 5 7 9 #11 13
This gives you a lydian mode. This makes the overtone series more pleasing to the ear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydian_Chromatic_Concept_of_Tonal_Organization

Personally I didn't come here for an argument and thought maybe the OP may find something useful in the post I have provided.

No time at mo and accidentally pressed post.

Oh and in terms of debate it maybe worth thanking all of our lucky stars that we weren't around in Gregorian chant days.... Killed us for even thinking this stuff.

 

Last edited: Oct 20, 2015

no comment

 

Of course it does but that has to do with the instrument, not just with the key by itself. Instruments have their own resonant peak and air modes.

Keys have deeper differences if they are tempered because the collection of resultant pitches will be different from key to key (eg. a B in one key will sound different than a B in other key).

Key signatures are used for convenience since the diatonic scale is the basis for most of the western music. The staff is diatonic so alterations are needed and in a graphic representation (staff), the correct enharmonics should be used. ...but MUSIC IS NOT A STAFF (for fuck's sake...).

Intervals are merely distances between pitches (frequencies) witch in 12TET are equally divided, that's why numeric formulas are so popular and easily transposable... and no, they are not a "quick fix" for anything, they are a legit part of music theory but many don't go past the point of thinking that reading a staff IS music theory.

 

Sorry but it s got nothing to do with instruments when we talk about ET,even after bach and werkmeister composers gave names to keys that for them had peculiar characteristics

 

Some even see colors in keys all that... which is all very pretty but I don't care much for. If we talked about specific frequencies, that would make some sense but if we look at music history, the A we have today was around a semitone lower in the past so... whatever rocks anyone's boats... Also, the fact that in 12TET every note is the same in every key doesn't help, tests have showed 50/50 results, which means placebo. Don't really care about that.


When the octave is divided in 12 equal parts, key signatures and enharmonic rules are just for show, for representation (staff). They make no real difference into composing or analysis.

 

I never said music was a staff... in fact I don't even read sheet music. Not because I don't want to but because I can't. It'd come in handy from time to time though. I try not to let it hold me back.

It'd be slightly unfair to say that the whole world of music is ruled by strictly 12Tet. As not many physically real musical instruments produce perfect sine-waves with no overtones (Triangle ?) and also technically speaking you can't play a blues scale without a quarter note. If all you had were each of the 12 fractions (They are equally divided logarithmically) then effects like vibrato would be impossible. Velocity of the strike on almost any instrument also slightly changes the pitch. Dynamics would be difficult...

Anyhow this reminds me of a debate I once had with an old teacher about whether or not the Miles Davis track So What should be notated via the use of using accidentals or just a key change. You guys decide....

In reality it really doesn't matter just do what works for you.

"When the octave is divided in 12 equal parts, key signatures and enharmonic rules are just for show, for representation (staff). They make no real difference into composing or analysis."

Coincidentally that wouldn't work for a brass or woodwind player. You never hear the story of Miles walking off the stage because Bird called a tune in B..?

It may not matter to you but it sure would to people you may need to work with.

 

As an example, when I am composing or writing parts, I don't even care about the key, sometimes it's not even decided yet. I might think something like "Vb9 chord/harmony, melody targets the 3 and the b6 falls to the 5 on the beat". Why the hell would/should I care about key signatures and enharmonics when I can compose/think about music in numbers that are apllied to any key?

For that same reason, when I play stringed instruments (fretted or fretless) I always think "all sharps", that's how I like to view the fingerboard but that doesn't mean that I don't know the equivalent flats, it's just a matter of workflow.

 

they do, because if u take a tritone, depending on how u consider the two notes that make it, it solves on different chords, whether u write it or not, so even if the sound is the same the purpose is different , but u don t want to understand that because sharps and flats have no more reason to exist since we have piano roll...

 

That has to do with the rest of the thread, not you. With that said, the rest of your post is out of alignment with the reasons of what I wrote.

That has nothing to do with 12 TET. Just because you have instruments or genres that deviate or simply aren't able to play it, that doesn't mean that the western music isn't totally into it in this day and age. I play fretless bass, if that says something about me knowing what the differences are.

 

I have already answered that, you made no effort to understand.

The situation you're depicting ONLY works that way WITHIN A TONALITY, otherwise there is absolutely NO HIERARCHY of intervals. If you want me to explain it better, stop being arrogant and just fucking ask.

I never said that sharps or flats have no more reason to exist, in fact I have just repeated one of the reasons for them to exist in my last sentence.

Turn off the arrogance and leave the ego at the door if you truly want to ask something.

 

Adding to this, a very important piece of info that might turn on the light for you:

Scale degrees and intervals ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

 

no it doesn t, maybe the opposite.within a key u are free to decide whether or not usng sharps and flats,if u keep the work for yourself, u can even play it without writing it, or just imagine it.But the very moment u happen to need to make a modulation, u ll see that your reasoning doesn t stand up

 

and btw, there is hierarchy of intervals,it s on that hierarchy that harmony is based,maybe go to read a harmony book and study the harmonic series and how it is applied to voice leading and arrangment

 

Last edited: Oct 20, 2015

Not sure what you are tryin to say Kouros. We both agree that instrumentation is a factor of western harmony. Some of these instruments prefer certain keys, hence the piano idea of stacked thirds above an F. Think you'd like the key of atonal !

 

We must all remember that Dm is the saddest (sadist?) of all the keys.

The sound that we perceive from vibrating air is a form of energy that we translate and give meaning to in a variety of ways, many of which have been talked about here. Combining them in different ways affect us differently by the means of the sympathetic resonance of our bones, soft tissue, our aqueous cells, the room that we're in and a multitude of other factors. Sound can kill, make us smile or make us cry, madden us with insane visceral dissonance or help us fall asleep at night after a long, hard day. To me, and only speaking for myself here, the key of a song can elicit different responses in those listening to it. A long time ago I played the same song to a bunch of friends, something like 25 or so, in different keys on a piano in the hope of satisfying this very question. I kept it within my vocal range, my comfort zone for this particular song called "Strange Dichotomy". I went through Dm, Em, F#m and G#m. The favorite by a long-shot was the Dm. Polling afterwards revealed that Dm was far and away peoples favorite because most explained that it "just sounded right" for a variety of reasons. I originally wrote the song in Em and from then on afterwards played it in the preferred key of the masses.

Yes, theory does not grant favorites and can be explained and scribbled about endlessly concerning the best way to be internalized, memorized, taught and tickled into compliance, but at the end of the day the "savage" living somewhere deep in the darkest jungle, when pulling out her or his homemade indigenous musical instrument will lovingly play what their soul begs to share, offering themselves fully and transparently to the magic of existence.

 

duskwings,

You're too biased, that's why you are wrong and don't even notice.

Music doesn't even need keys and all that, specially if it isn't diatonic. Degrees and intervals are not the same thing and you still don't understand the difference, you keep relating everything to key sigantures.

You even went a step further and insisted that a person cannot learn intervals if he doesn't know about key signatures and enharmonics. This.. is absolutely false.

Stop trying to be right, use your head to think for a bit.